Art Spiegelman's rejected Golden Age TPB essay

[scourge]

In other words you can’t supply a specific quote!

No, it was just another way of telling you to take your bad faith argument somewhere else.

[hawkeyefan]

In a world in which people have the ability to live their lives and be exposed to all sorts of ideas, concerns, and problems, of course sooner or later someone is going to speak up about a problem and suggest what solutions could be done to solve it in the best way they can, and it's right that you should do so. And in Marvel's case, like I touched on above with the screenshot, as long as the material is well-written, well-researched, and just worthy enough to be considered good all around by many accounts, then I see no reason why you should just keep it to yourself, especially if it's very much a valid statement that's deserving of being seen and/or heard by the masses.

Yeah, absolutely. As with most things in writing, if the result is good enough, it can justify all kinds of transgressions. Although I think it’s smart to acknowledge and discuss it as they did in the example you provided.

[Username taken]

Marvel were being cowardly here.

Seriously, they went to Spiegelman...Spiegleman of all people and when they saw what he wrote (what was rather light) they chickened out.

The Marvel of yesteryear (the Marvel that gave us Black Panther despite the intense racism of the time) weren't afraid to express themselves. But as others have pointed out, since their CEO is Mr Perlmutter (a bigoted asshat himself) that's close to Donald Trump, it stands to reason that Marvel will exercise caution.

[Rosebunse]

Marvel were being cowardly here.

Seriously, they went to Spiegelman...Spiegleman of all people and when they saw what he wrote (what was rather light) they chickened out.

The Marvel of yesteryear (the Marvel that gave us Black Panther despite the intense racism of the time) weren't afraid to express themselves. But as others have pointed out, since their CEO is Mr Perlmutter (a bigoted asshat himself) that's close to Donald Trump, it stands to reason that Marvel will exercise caution.

I think it really shows the division between Marvel itself and the people who work for it. You know that some editor or higher up thought getting him was awesome! I mean, virtually all people grow up reading Maus at some point. It's a classic of literature and Spiegelman is a legend.

Honestly, I'm surprised that Trump isn't lauded in Marvel and made into some great president. He isn't. But you have Perlmutter, who only is going to let things go so far.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Honestly, I'm surprised that Trump isn't lauded in Marvel and made into some great president. He isn't. But you have Perlmutter, who only is going to let things go so far.

If Perlmutter made Marvel into an accurate reflection of his political allegiances, all we'd get is stuff like Mr. A and Holy Terror. So no he won't do that.

I personally doubt if Perlmutter was involved in this. An intro for an arty comic series published by Marvel and an arty company, intended for a niche of a niche audience, isn't something Perlmutter would involve himself in. I think this is some junior underling trying to gain attention of the boss by showing "we wuz with you...at Rigoletto's".

[Rosebunse]

If Perlmutter made Marvel into an accurate reflection of his political allegiances, all we'd get is stuff like Mr. A and Holy Terror. So no he won't do that.

I personally doubt if Perlmutter was involved in this. An intro for an arty comic series published by Marvel and an arty company, intended for a niche of a niche audience, isn't something Perlmutter would involve himself in. I think this is some junior underling trying to gain attention of the boss by showing "we wuz with you...at Rigoletto's".

You're probably right. As long as things make him money, he stays out of it. It'll be interesting how things work once Trump is out of office

[Iron Maiden]

If Perlmutter made Marvel into an accurate reflection of his political allegiances, all we'd get is stuff like Mr. A and Holy Terror. So no he won't do that.

I personally doubt if Perlmutter was involved in this. An intro for an arty comic series published by Marvel and an arty company, intended for a niche of a niche audience, isn't something Perlmutter would involve himself in. I think this is some junior underling trying to gain attention of the boss by showing "we wuz with you...at Rigoletto's".

I do think that the fear of angering Perlmutter was big part of it. Remember the tantrum he pulled with the Fantastic Four rights slipping away again when Fox announced production of the FF 2015 movie? He ordered all tokens of the FF's existence removed from the Marvel offices and the title was ordered cancelled despite doing fairly well at the time. I think he's aware of more things than you're giving him credit for. You also see this with the X-Men to a smaller extent. He's not totally crazy or he would have had that cancelled too. But for example, there was a lack of representation of the FF and the X-Men in promotional images for Marvel's 75th Anniversary materials.

Fortunately for the film division, Marvel Studio's Kevin Feige succeeded (with Disney backing him) in a behind the scenes power struggle that got Perlmutter removed from the movie side of things

[Revolutionary_Jack]

You're probably right. As long as things make him money, he stays out of it. It'll be interesting how things work once Trump is out of office

Perlmutter as it is doesn't have a say or influence on the most profitable piece of the Marvel pie -- the MCU. And now that Disney Plus is coming and Marvel TV will be under Kevin Feige too, even Marvel Television doesn't have him anymore. That Inhumans show which he pushed and which got his name attached with was also a disaster that made him a laughing stock. So as it is, Perlmutter might want to be on the low-key lest shareholders and others gather and ask him to step down. As it is, Marvel Entertainment, the company that oversees the comics and other stuff, doesn't have much going for it. The Netflix shows are ended now.

I think Perlmutter's political involvement with Trump is simply him stretching his wings a bit now that he has less space to push stuff around at Marvel.

[Rosebunse]

I do think that the fear of angering Perlmutter was big part of it. Remember the tantrum he pulled with the Fantastic Four rights slipping away again when Fox announced production of the FF 2015 movie? He ordered all tokens of the FF's existence removed from the Marvel offices and the title was ordered cancelled despite to fairly well at the time. I think he's aware of more things than you're giving him credit for. You also so this with the X-Men to a smaller extent. He's not totally crazy or he would have had that cancelled too. But for example, there was a lack of representation of the FF and the X-Men in promotional images for Marvel's 75th Anniversary materials.

Fortunately for the film division, Marvel Studio's Kevin Feige succeeded (with Disney backing him) in a behind the scenes power struggle that got Perlmutter removed from the movie side of things

Kevin Feige, what did we as a fandom do to deserve you and all you do?

[JackDaw]

No, it was just another way of telling you to take your bad faith argument somewhere else.

I was asking a question.

That you can interpret that as a “bad faith argument” speaks volumes about your mind set.

[scourge]

I do think that the fear of angering Perlmutter was big part of it. Remember the tantrum he pulled with the Fantastic Four rights slipping away again when Fox announced production of the FF 2015 movie? He ordered all tokens of the FF's existence removed from the Marvel offices and the title was ordered cancelled despite doing fairly well at the time. I think he's aware of more things than you're giving him credit for. You also see this with the X-Men to a smaller extent. He's not totally crazy or he would have had that cancelled too. But for example, there was a lack of representation of the FF and the X-Men in promotional images for Marvel's 75th Anniversary materials.

Fortunately for the film division, Marvel Studio's Kevin Feige succeeded (with Disney backing him) in a behind the scenes power struggle that got Perlmutter removed from the movie side of things

Avoiding Perlmutter's tantrums was definitely part of it. Even if he didn't see it himself, all that would need to happen was the usual right-wing trolls mentioning it on twitter. It' eventually get to Perlmutter's buddy Trump, and he'd either have a fit on Twitter or complain to Perlmutter at one of his stupid golf resorts.

I was asking a question.

That you can interpret that as a “bad faith argument” speaks volumes about your mind set.

No you were trying to play the dumb "Oh he didn't specifically say you were an idiot so he couldn't possibly be insulting you" game while ignoring context and implication.
And now you're playing the "Just asking a question" game.

[JackDaw]

No you were trying to play the dumb "Oh he didn't specifically say you were an idiot so he couldn't possibly be insulting you" game while ignoring context and implication.
And now you're playing the "Just asking a question" game.

Not at all. I am just completely mystified how you could interpret anything mickelmcknight in a way that made it fair to "say":-

This isn't a matter of 'disagreeing'. There is no civil discourse with people who's position is "Everyone that isn't a straight, white, christian male is wrong and should conform to our demands!". Don't want to be demonized, stop acting demonic.

If you can't give a specific quote...maybe you ought to accept you made a mistake??

[scourge]

Not at all. I am just completely mystified how you could interpret anything mickelmcknight in a way that made it fair to "say":-



If you can't give a specific quote...maybe you ought to accept you made a mistake??

A specific quote was given. You ignored it.

No mistake was made on my part.

Now go troll elsewhere.

[phonogram12]

No you were trying to play the dumb "Oh he didn't specifically say you were an idiot so he couldn't possibly be insulting you" game while ignoring context and implication.
And now you're playing the "Just asking a question" game.

He certainly is.

[Reviresco]

I'm glad they cut it for a variety of reasons. It doesn't sound like it was a terribly appropriate context for the injection of personal politics, and Marvel has every right to determine that they want to dial back on the injection of politics into their product. It is rarely a good idea to alienate half of your customers, both potential and actual.

The comment strikes me as a bit feeble, and is going to be become dated soon (the world has gone completely insane if the Donald is re-elected)...I can see why Marvel wouldnÂ’t want to irritate a fair wad of its customer base for such a peripheral comment.

If you truly care about and enjoy comics, then you should want healthy sales. Without healthy sales, the industry truly will be doomed. Alienating half of the buyers, current and potential, is sure to hurt sales. Therefore.....

Why in the world would you think that Trump supporters make up HALF of comic buyers??? Or even a "fair wad"??? Trump does NOT have, and never has had, half the population of the US supporting him. He's only got like 30% of voters -- which makes for an even smaller segment of the population.

And this is NOT about comic sales. Spiegelman's introduction was for a very, very, very niche product with a very limited run that is aimed at quality book collectors. It's a Folio Society book and costs $225. The Folio Society publishes all sorts of "political" classics, so seeing Trump referred to as The Orange Skull isn't going to have their audience clutching pearls. Frankly, I'm amazed it bothers any Marvel fan. For the far more ... snooty audience of the Folio Society, having PULITZER PRIZE winner Spiegelman on the book is far more likely to contribute to sales than Roy Thomas (who I love).

Second, it's a Golden Age comics reprint, which also has a very limited audience, and certainly doesn't contribute to modern Marvel's sales numbers. Anyone who reads a Golden Age comic first, is not going to run out and find more of that sort of book being published right now.

Otherwise, I agree with those that say Marvel has always has politics in their books. These particular stories have politics in them. Stan Lee's soapbox often addressed it directly. I don't see why they are shying away from it now.