Amazing Spider-Man #44

[David Walton]

how did we gaslight ourselves into thinking he's either gwen, when mysterio confirmed he's a man, or extremely minor and flat supporting character ned leeds, who was alive when kindred debuted

Yeah, but the Ned thing could potentially be a red herring. I mean, it's kind of weird that in a short time Spencer confirmed that clones have the individual's real soul, then had Ned's clone show up only to kill him off almost immediately. Writers have their thumb on the scales. It's entirely conceivable that there's some kind of pseudo-mystical explanation on tap as to why the clone was running around the same time as Kindred was active.

[Glio]

Yeah I don't know where the rest of spider-person fit into this.

If it is Harry perhaps he is jealous of Peter's relationship with them.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

It's not like people haven't confused pronouns before or that scary people in a costume with a mask that distorts feature and voice isn't used to throw people off that the bad guy is a lady (cf, Mask of the Phantasm).

Yeah I don't know where the rest of spider-person fit into this.

If it is Harry perhaps he is jealous of Peter's relationship with them.

If it's Harry, then he can only be Spec#200 Harry, which means BND-Harry is an impostor. Since BND-Harry hasn't shown up once in Spencer's Run, there's no set-up, surprise, foreshadowing for it to be him.

It's too complicated and continuity-detail for a big reveal.

Again think of the press blitz and blow-out, when people find out who's behind the bandages, it's got to be an instant hook that travels without the continuity stuff to explain it. "Kindred is Gwen" conveys an instant message that "Holy s--t, they brought Gwen back as a bad guy".

-- "Kindred-maybe-Harry" is "Oh...Peter's trashy friend who occassionally became bad guy before dying and redeeming and then brought back to life after OMD as lame panel covering paint is now another different bad guy"
-- "Kindred-maybe-Ned" is "Oh...Ned Leeds that guy whose name they gave to Miles' best friend in the Tom Holland movies is now a bad guy, that's wizard I guess".

[Glio]

We only found out that Harry had not died after One More Day. And later we discovered that the one who "faked his death" was Mysterio (The same guy that Kindred has under his control).

I don't see it impossible for the current Harry to be an impostor set by Mephisto / Kindred to divert attention.

And Harry did appear in Spencer's Amazing. The Absolute Carnage comic in which Kindred has a conversation with Norman Osborn is the same one in which Peter has a flashback of when Harry was with withdrawal syndrome and Norman forbade him from seeing him.

[David Walton]

Not everything is marketing. Spencer is, first and foremost, a storyteller. Buzz is a storytelling consideration--you want excitement, after all--but "Sins Past" put Gwen in a story that was a poor fit. (Not saying Gwen is a poor fit for Kindred, just saying that if she's not right for whatever Spencer has in mind, buzz is irrelevant.)

Also worth noting that Spencer loves deep cuts, and he likes to resolve entangled plotlines in service of their original promise (i.e. HUNTED being a course correction back toward KLH's characterization). So he could take the opportunity to fix Ned's treatment in the Hobgoblin saga.

[Glio]

Not everything is marketing. Spencer is, first and foremost, a storyteller. Buzz is a storytelling consideration--you want excitement, after all--but "Sins Past" put Gwen in a story that was a poor fit. (Not saying Gwen is a poor fit for Kindred, just saying that if she's not right for whatever Spencer has in mind, buzz is irrelevant.)

Also worth noting that Spencer loves deep cuts, and he likes to resolve entangled plotlines in service of their original promise (i.e. HUNTED being a course correction back toward KLH's characterization). So he could take the opportunity to fix Ned's treatment in the Hobgoblin saga.

With everything from the wedding and the hell, maybe he even wants to fix One More Day.

Don't undo it but give it closure.

[NC_Yankee]

Yeah I don't know where the rest of spider-person fit into this.

If it is Harry perhaps he is jealous of Peter's relationship with them.

Keep in mind that Mephisto made a deal with Miles and Otto so it is not just Peter. If OMD/BND comes to an end ( which I suspect happens in Amazing 900 with Aunt May finally being sent to “Sleep With The Fish”), the OMD/BND concept May very well be picked up in Miles book.

[David Walton]

With everything from the wedding and the hell, maybe he even wants to fix One More Day.

Don't undo it but give it closure.

I definitely think that's the case. This past issue actually showed what Mephisto claimed in OMD--that a piece of Peter's soul would understand the loss he suffered.

[Glio]

Keep in mind that Mephisto made a deal with Miles and Otto so it is not just Peter. If OMD/BND comes to an end ( which I suspect happens in Amazing 900 with Aunt May finally being sent to “Sleep With The Fish”), the OMD/BND concept May very well be picked up in Miles book.

Mephisto has an addiction to ruining spider-people's lives.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

We only found out that Harry had not died after One More Day. And later we discovered that the one who "faked his death" was Mysterio (The same guy that Kindred has under his control).

I don't see it impossible for the current Harry to be an impostor set by Mephisto / Kindred to divert attention.

And Harry did appear in Spencer's Amazing. The Absolute Carnage comic in which Kindred has a conversation with Norman Osborn is the same one in which Peter has a flashback of when Harry was with withdrawal syndrome and Norman forbade him from seeing him.

A flashback to Harry from ASM#121 is not the same as BND-Harry.

Not everything is marketing.

When you set up a mystery in an ongoing and build it up over 50 issues for a reveal, that reveal has to be marketable so as to increase and provide value to every story that built up to it and pay the investment that Marvel put on writers. This has to be the point that brings in new readers, or fence-sitters (the kind who may have read a few issues here and there, who were waiting to see what this Kindred thing led up to and so on).

So marketing is a very big thing.

Spencer is, first and foremost, a storyteller.

A storyteller who exists in a modern internet landscape of ongoing comics where ultimately you do have to deliver some "watercooler moments" or a trend on twitter. And for better and worse, "HydraCap" is proof that Spencer can deliver the goods. He created a hook that proliferated among people who never read the comic and never did, and ultimately led to an easter egg gag in Avengers Endgame.

The Kindred reveal has to be a comparable moment of impact. And only one character can deliver the goods. A character who even if some people guess, would still be a great shock when they lower the boom.

Also worth noting that Spencer loves deep cuts, and he likes to resolve entangled plotlines in service of their original promise (i.e. HUNTED being a course correction back toward KLH's characterization). So he could take the opportunity to fix Ned's treatment in the Hobgoblin saga.

Ned's treatment in the Hobgoblin saga was already fixed by Roger Stern in Hobgoblin Lives, who made him out to be an innocent tortured and brainwashed by Kingsley, and had him exonerated publicly. By making original Ned Leeds into a vengeful obsessive jerk, Spencer is demonizing Ned worse than Owsley (who ordered him to be made Hobgoblin) ever did.

[NC_Yankee]

Mephisto has an addiction to ruining spider-people's lives.

Yes he does. But why Spiders? There are characters more powerful and ( or) more despised by Mephisto. Dr. Strange fits the bill in both boxes. Maybe just maybe there is something about Spiders that can destroy Mephisto?

[NC_Yankee]

A flashback to Harry from ASM#121 is not the same as BND-Harry.



When you set up a mystery in an ongoing and build it up over 50 issues for a reveal, that reveal has to be marketable so as to increase and provide value to every story that built up to it and pay the investment that Marvel put on writers. This has to be the point that brings in new readers, or fence-sitters (the kind who may have read a few issues here and there, who were waiting to see what this Kindred thing led up to and so on).

So marketing is a very big thing.



A storyteller who exists in a modern internet landscape of ongoing comics where ultimately you do have to deliver some "watercooler moments" or a trend on twitter. And for better and worse, "HydraCap" is proof that Spencer can deliver the goods. He created a hook that proliferated among people who never read the comic and never did, and ultimately led to an easter egg gag in Avengers Endgame.

The Kindred reveal has to be a comparable moment of impact. And only one character can deliver the goods. A character who even if some people guess, would still be a great shock when they lower the boom.



Ned's treatment in the Hobgoblin saga was already fixed by Roger Stern in Hobgoblin Lives, who made him out to be an innocent tortured and brainwashed by Kingsley, and had him exonerated publicly. By making original Ned Leeds into a vengeful obsessive jerk, Spencer is demonizing Ned worse than Owsley (who ordered him to be made Hobgoblin) ever did.

That is one of the reasons I identified Ned as Kindred ( he also checks a lot of boxes). I would also note Gwen as Kindred would be as popular as OMD/BND and Sins Past with readers, and Harry is too obvious and would not be much of a game changer.

[David Walton]

That is one of the reasons I identified Ned as Kindred ( he also checks a lot of boxes). I would also note Gwen as Kindred would be as popular as OMD/BND and Sins Past with readers, and Harry is too obvious and would not be much of a game changer.

Also, problem with Harry is that he made peace with Peter before his death. So if you have Harry returning as a villain straight from hell, you're undermining the intent of DeMatteis' story. And HUNTED has shown that Spencer is more likely to try and return to the spirit of DeMatteis' stories than depart from them.

[Will Evans]

That is one of the reasons I identified Ned as Kindred ( he also checks a lot of boxes). I would also note Gwen as Kindred would be as popular as OMD/BND and Sins Past with readers, and Harry is too obvious and would not be much of a game changer.

We have Spider-Gwen to balance that out.

[David Walton]

Yes he does. But why Spiders? There are characters more powerful and ( or) more despised by Mephisto. Dr. Strange fits the bill in both boxes. Maybe just maybe there is something about Spiders that can destroy Mephisto?

In-universe there's no logical explanation that I'm aware of.

In ASM 274, Mephisto never gave any indication he considered Spider-Man a threat or even worthy of his attention. Quite the opposite, actually. He was upset when the Beyonder stuck him with Spider-Man as his 'champion' in their wager for the fate of the multiverse. This was before JMS added a mystical component to Spider-Man's origin/powerset. Mephisto was upset that Peter was a mere human.