Avengers: Endgame Spoilers

[MindofShadow]

Long thread, may have missed stuff obviously.

Two things about the end thinking about it some more

1. It really seemed like Bucky knew exactly what cap was doing when he left. he was the only one not surprised at all and seemed at piece about it

2. Has the theory That cap lived with alternate timeline Peggy until she died then came back to prime timeline (now old) been debunked in anyway?

[AJBopp]

2. Has the theory That cap lived with alternate timeline Peggy until she died then came back to prime timeline (now old) been debunked in anyway?

It's not a generally-accepted theory, but there are some that hold it. My feeling is that the movie does a decent job of debunking it, if for no other reason than that there's no reason to think it might be an alternate version, or to think that Steve would settle for an alternate version.

[AnakinFlair]

I imagine that they didn't want to overtax the gauntlet. They knew how the first snap nearly destroyed it. So they probably weren't confident that it couldn't do much more than what it had already done.

The MCU gauntlet isn't the comic gauntlet, that can do literally anything. It has limits. Erasing 5 years of time on a universal scale would likely be beyond those limits.

Actually, Tony explictily told Banner to bring everyone back, but don't mess with the past five years. It was the deal he made with Cap to get his help with time travel- he didn't want to loose his daughter. So really, you can blame Tony for all of the bad things that will happen now.

[G. Boney]

Bad writing by the Ant Man & Wasp team. It would have made much more sense for Janet to have only aged a day or so. As I watched AM & W, I kept wondering how Janet hadn't long since starved to death given that she was in the Quantum Realm for 30 years without food or water or anything else. But they didn't want to have a young Janet competing with Hope for the role of the Wasp, so they aged Janet even if it didn't make sense to do so. Just another poor choice in what I think was the worst of all MCU movies. The choice to age Janet 30 years looks even worse now that Endgame retconned how time works in the Quantum Realm.

Lol...yes you must really dislike that movie, if you want to blame it...which came first...for the unnecessary change made afterward by the Endgame writers.

[MindofShadow]

It's not a generally-accepted theory, but there are some that hold it. My feeling is that the movie does a decent job of debunking it, if for no other reason than that there's no reason to think it might be an alternate version, or to think that Steve would settle for an alternate version.

If the person has the exact same experiences up to the point... is it really an alternative version?

time travel yay lol

[AJBopp]

Bad writing by the Ant Man & Wasp team. It would have made much more sense for Janet to have only aged a day or so. As I watched AM & W, I kept wondering how Janet hadn't long since starved to death given that she was in the Quantum Realm for 30 years without food or water or anything else. But they didn't want to have a young Janet competing with Hope for the role of the Wasp, so they aged Janet even if it didn't make sense to do so. Just another poor choice in what I think was the worst of all MCU movies. The choice to age Janet 30 years looks even worse now that Endgame retconned how time works in the Quantum Realm.

Actually I think it probably had more to do with making her relationship with Hank age appropriate. Didn't want to make it look like some Catherine Zeta Jones thing.

[anyajenkins]

It wouldn’t be an ‘alternate’ Peggy. He was going back to ‘his’ past and that would be ‘his’ Peggy. Him staying in the past would cause it to branch off into an alternate reality, but it wasn’t ‘alternate’ to start with.

[AJBopp]

It wouldn’t be an ‘alternate’ Peggy. He was going back to ‘his’ past and that would be ‘his’ Peggy. Him staying in the past would cause it to branch off into an alternate reality, but it wasn’t ‘alternate’ to start with.

Don't Do it, AJ....Don't Do it, AJ....Don't Do it, AJ....Don't Do it, AJ....Don't Do it, AJ....


Gonna Do it.

Cap went back for the express purpose of snipping off all the branches and not having any straggler lying loose. He reunited with original Peggy in original timeline, and live 75 happy years with her in original timeline. The thought of creating an alternate Peggy, living without him, would have been horrifying to him and caused him to live all his life in torment.

[Divine Spark]

With Brie Larson saying that Captain Marvel didn’t even have script until after Endgame started filming I get the feeling that she was added to this film very late hence why she is barely in it.

[protege]

Actually, Tony explictily told Banner to bring everyone back, but don't mess with the past five years. It was the deal he made with Cap to get his help with time travel- he didn't want to loose his daughter. So really, you can blame Tony for all of the bad things that will happen now.

Quite a legacy he’s leaving behind.

[Gorthon616]

2. Has the theory That cap lived with alternate timeline Peggy until she died then came back to prime timeline (now old) been debunked in anyway?

Unless if the Russo's make a statement otherwise, I believe that this is the most elegant conclusion to make, as it can be made consistent with our understanding of the current MCU timeline, and is possible given how they have used "time travel" in the movie.

The main reason why it's the most reasonable solution is that there's really no coherent way to understand the present MCU timeline if that Steve is stuck around in our continuity. Peggy has had interactions with Captain America after his return and so it's not reasonable to think that Old Steve abandoned her, during that time period. I mean they were married, and she died, and Old Steve didn't show up to the funeral and no one knows about him and goes, hey where's Peggy's husband? Or alternatively that he faked his death prior to that point?

Sure, we can chalk it up to a mistake on the Russo's part, but given that the alternative point of view (where he traveled back from the alternate dimension) presents only a minor error, i think it's reasonable to presume that is the case.

Keep in mind that the Russo's have consistent described Cap has having a story arc from Winter Solider to Endgame. So you are reeaally calling into question their competency to render their own story as being invalid. If they hadn't been writing Cap and Peggy's interactions in previous movies, and it was a different director, I think it would be reasonable to presume a retcon/continuity error. However, given that these movies were also their movies, I think it's pretty unreasonable.

The biggest issues I've seen brought up to this issue is the fact that Old Cap does not return at the time platform. However, as is clearly shown in the film when Steve and Tony travel make an additional jump into the past, the time platform is not needed to time travel. Now if they don't need the platform, why did they build it? This is what I was referring to previously as the minor error, as the film clearly shows that it is superflourous to making a jump and that the entirety of the time traveling ability is constrained in the suit. Perhaps it's necessary as an anchoring point, but clearly where and when a jump is made is not restrained by how the time platform is being operated. So Old Steve could have chosen to jump back into the MCU timeline at any place and time of his desire as jumps are not constrained by or to the platform.

So why did they build the big platform initially? It's simply an aesthetic decision to make the time travel more visually interesting. why didn't they just have old steve return on the time platform to clearly indicate that that was happening? It's simply a dramatic decision to make the twist more impactful.

[HowitzerJoe]

Don't Do it, AJ....Don't Do it, AJ....Don't Do it, AJ....Don't Do it, AJ....Don't Do it, AJ....


Gonna Do it.

Cap went back for the express purpose of snipping off all the branches and not having any straggler lying loose. He reunited with original Peggy in original timeline, and live 75 happy years with her in original timeline. The thought of creating an alternate Peggy, living without him, would have been horrifying to him and caused him to live all his life in torment.

I thought once you go to the past immediately that sets off a new branch. Not the moment you come back.

Or, I guess since he put the stones back, that orginal timeline is the same. So this entire time there have been 2 Captain Americas?

[Divine Spark]

Cap had a shield that was perfectly intact, so I think it’s safe to say he came back from an alternate timeline.

[Gorthon616]

I thought once you go to the past immediately that sets off a new branch. Not the moment you come back.

That's how it works in the comics. I don't think they really belabor the point in the movie. I mean tbh, the comics explanation only really works from an outside perspective as technically according to the rules (as i understand them) you can never return to your original timeline.

Also as far as the movies has been presented to us regarding Peggy's life without Steve, she was moved on with her life and was happy. I mean, yes, she got Alzheimer, but most other indications suggest she was perfectly happy and lived a full life, so I really don't see why (aside from the Alzheimer) Steve would view her life without him as "horrifying." It's in fact the other way around, that he found life to be horrifying without her, and that he was not able to move on from her (despite her specifically telling him to).

TBH, it would be uncharacteristically narcissistic for Steve to think that "obviously, Peggy's life without me miserable, even though she told me it wasn't, I bet she was just lying to make me feel better."

[Adam West]

So why did they build the big platform initially? It's simply an aesthetic decision to make the time travel more visually interesting. why didn't they just have old steve return on the time platform to clearly indicate that that was happening? It's simply a dramatic decision to make the twist more impactful.

I think I need to watch Ant-Man and The Wasp again, if they have any more information about this. But I think the platform was needed to made the initial entrance to QR. What Tony did was creating a time GPS so that they still have connection to the QR once they're in the time stream and can go to a specific point in time. Because if you think about it, they don't need to have a time platform on whenever they want to arrive and they also don't need it when they want to jump back.
I think what Steve did was once he jumped back to the 40s, he took off his time bracelet and just continue with his life with Peggy. Then when she passed away, he went to the Stark and Pym in this alternate timeline and ask them to build another time platform and jump him back into his original timeline