Is so stupid that Valeria Richards hangs out with Dr. Doom...

[Oberon]

I wish to hold you to this:


Can you prove I said ... "I cried of/for/with happiness when I saw N and S making out".. The making out is def *your* words. I just wouldn't term it that way.

Yes, we should not judge. Its a story. You can like or hate it, pretty much, whatever in-between.

What you are doing is trying to get others to judge as you do, or provide worthless arguments about it all.

If I am emotionally attached to Sue, and possibly with Namor's constant interest in her, so what? Why do I have to judge over that.

Look up Mary Shelly's mom: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Wollstonecraft Philosophically, in matters of love, this is pretty close to where I am.

[The Ray]

1. I was thinking about putting Sue on fire in front of her daughter. For the rest he fought them quite a few time, but usually doesn't torture them.

He only tries to destroy then painlessly, I suppose.

2. Reed is a good son : he trusted own father. And his daughter - her future self to be more precise. And as you know I'm sure, Doom did his part to save the Earth and more probably even the multiverse from the mad Celestials. So it makes more sense than that.

For all he knows, his future daughter is a villain for spending all her life hanging out with a megalomaniac dictator that assaults women when they look like his mom.

About the role model and the values, they know that she is safe and that she is intelligent enough to build her own values.

And with all that intelligence, she decided that a megalomaniac villain that does his best to destroy her family is someone worth admiring.

Maybe parents should have a more active role in educating a 3 years old kid, don't you think?

[Oberon]

I am here to show the difference between Discussion ... and arguing.

And you're not just arguing, you are in fact, goading others with your arguments.

You are an antagonist. I read it in a book of non-fiction!

[Abe]

Isn't arguing over fictional characters the sole purpose of this forum? If you think that fictional characters shouldn't be discussed, what are you doing here?

First you could have taken in consideration the part of Oberon's post about soap opera.

Secondly I didn't knew that arguing over fictional characters was the sole purpose of this forum. I thought it was also talking about books, writers, stories, artists... Many things that make difficult in my eye to talk about THE Reed, THE Doom etc...

[Abe]

He only tries to destroy then painlessly, I suppose.



For all he knows, his future daughter is a villain for spending all her life hanging out with a megalomaniac dictator that assaults women when they look like his mom.



And with all that intelligence, she decided that a megalomaniac villain that does his best to destroy her family is someone worth admiring.

Maybe parents should have a more active role in educating a 3 years old kid, don't you think?

1. Sadistic Doom is not the more common. I suppose.

2. I'm starting to think that you haven't read Hickman's FF cause that's not Future Val... She was mostly reshaping the future with her brother and her grand dad. Don't you remember? She meets Doom only once when she convinces Reed and Nathaniel to save him - because he deserved it in battling the Celestial and buying everyone the time they needed. "All hope lies in Doom". Remember...

3. She doesn't admire him - except I guess for the scientific part. She more probably respect his strong will though. And she's probably happy to be a problematic kid confronting her parents.

4. That's a very specific kid IN A COMIC BOOK. So if it makes a pleasant reading I'm totally okay with that. Yep.

....

You know it's not really pleasant to discuss with someone who deliberately choose to ignore many posts or some parts in many posts. Your position can be defended well even if you recognise some other points of view. It could even be more nuanced and more interesting...

I still wonder : which FF run have you read? Which did you like? Which you didn't? Why?

And to quote one of my earlier posts : "Easy for what?"

[CaptCleghorn]

2. I'm starting to think that you haven't read Hickman's FF

Brilliant observation. Spot on.

[Michael Watkins]

I've read all of Hickman's run.

[The Ray]

But I really haven't read Hickman's Fantastic Four.

What I read: DeFalco, a little of Byrne, Claremont, Waid, Millar, a little of Lee, Conway, Robinson.

If Hickman's run convinces the readers that letting your 3 years old daughter hanging out with a megalomaniac, violent dictator that has dedicated his life trying to destroy her family and have tortured her brother when he was little more than a toddler is GOOD PARENTING, then the guy should win a Nobel of Literature.

[Abe]

I've read all of Hickman's run.

Glad for you. Hope you liked it. If not, to each his own.

But you're not The Ray...

[SuperiorIronman]

Y'know Valeria just shows up at Victor's door. He doesn't really go looking for her to have a weekend.

[Michael Watkins]

Tom Brevoort says different. Doom and Consort Susan made their own family.



For better or worse, I think Reed and Sue know that there is a link there between Doom and Valeria. They may not understand it or like it but it's there nonetheless. I explained it all in an earlier post ...the link to Valeria von Doom from Claremont's Fantastic Four to the birth of Valeria Richards in FF #54 vol 3. When Sue came looking for Valeria in Latveria, her violent attack just makes things worse and Val was more afraid of her with Malice starting to take over than she was of Doom.

Plus there is an interesting thing happening with how much more we are learning about the college days when Reed, Ben and Victor were all at Empire State. Victor wanted them to leave him alone but Reed kept being a buttinsky. Then Reed messed around with the trophy Victor won in some contest (Marvel 2 in One) Fraction's revisiting of those days in a Fantastic Four flashback, he shows Ben going sneaking into Victor's dorm and sabotaging his device that later blows up. Reed just says it was Victor's own fault for not checking things out more thoroughly. So it getting to be more like 2 guys antagonizing one guy that didn't want to have anything to do with them because he thought they were idiots. There's more than enough blame to go around there. Would the world have been better off if Ben's tinkering lead to a fatal accident? Then he'd be guilty of manslaughter and more than likely go to prison. Maybe the Fantastic Four would never come to be.

do you want us to judge Doom by Lee/Kirby or the new stuff ?

[Iron Maiden]

1. Sadistic Doom is not the more common. I suppose.

2. I'm starting to think that you haven't read Hickman's FF cause that's not Future Val... She was mostly reshaping the future with her brother and her grand dad. Don't you remember? She meets Doom only once when she convince Reed and Nathaniel to save him - because he deserved it in battling the Celestial and buying everyone the time they needed. "All hope lies in Doom". Remember...

3. She doesn't admire him - except I guess for the scientific part. She more probably respect his strong will though. And she's probably happy to be a problematic kid confronting her parents.

4. That's a very specific kid IN A COMIC BOOK. So if it makes a pleasant reading I'm totally okay with that. Yep.

I'm getting tired of talking to the other guy so I will put this out there for you, mon ami. Don't you think that after all these years that there is a peculiar kind of intimacy (and I am not referring to the sexual context) between the Richards family and Victor? It's like he's the black sheep cousin from Europe that hardly anyone in the family likes and the feeling is mutual. Other than Boris, Victor has known Reed and the others longer than he has known any members of his family, who died long ago. They've broken bread together, most recently when Reed and Stephen Strange had dinner with Victor and Kristoff to discuss the incursion over Latveria. Of course, they told Victor to keep out of it ....they were so sure they could take care of it without him. I think it makes more sense to include him, and in this case tolerating the relationship between Val and Doom, than not to....it satisfies his ego that Reed's daughter accepts him when Reed has a history of being dismissive of him. Heck Reed even got into that mini feud with Hank over Pym Particles because he claimed he knew more about them.

[The Ray]

Y'know Valeria just shows up at Victor's door. He doesn't really go looking for her to have a weekend.

Yeah, but now that excuse doesn't work anymore. Reed and Sue know how their 3 years old daughter spends her time and are okay with that. Is that good parenting?

And how about Valeria herself? With all her intelligence, she isn't smart enough to understand that she shouldn't be hanging out with the guy that does his best to destroy her family?

Don't you think that after all these years that there is a peculiar kind of intimacy (and I am not referring to the sexual context) between the Richards family and Victor? It's like he's the black sheep cousin from Europe

How many criminal cousins that try to kill you and destroy your family do you have?

If you actually have any, would you let your 3 years old daughter hang out with such an individual? Would you consider yourself a good parenting while doing it?

[Abe]

But I really haven't read Hickman's Fantastic Four.

What I read: DeFalco, a little of Byrne, Claremont, Waid, Millar, a little of Lee, Conway, Robinson.

If Hickman's run convinces the readers that letting your 3 years old daughter hanging out with a megalomaniac, violent dictator that has dedicated his life trying to destroy her family and have tortured her brother when he was little more than a toddler is GOOD PARENTING, then the guy should win a Nobel of Literature.

Tbh that's not the point of the book, even if "Uncle Doom" is a highlight. That was my first encounter with Valeria btw, so, as I said I read without Waid in mind. Or Millar. Also Val doesn't live in Latveria in that story.

But it's truly a great comics about parenting. Really. That's a very personal book Hickman wrote and it's clearly the main theme. The relationship between Doom and Valeria is just a quite small part of that study. And it must be said that it's also done with a lot of humour - Hickman making his own voice heard by the way of the kids and especially Val.

If you want to read a comic book about what it means to be a parent, what it means to be a kid, then the book is for you, really.

[CaptCleghorn]

do you want us to judge Doom by Lee/Kirby or the new stuff ?

A good question. Personally, if we're looking at Doom and Val, Hickman is pretty much the main force behind Val's development as a character. Although Fraction and Robinson had stints with her, they didn't move her much if anything past where Hickman left her. The Doom we're looking at and focusing on should be the later Doom featured in Hickman's books though NOT the Bendis Doom post-SW.