What is the reason many people don't like Duke Thomas

[Aahz]

Isn't that pretty much what we have now? Look at Volkanik's list (where I'm now seeing they wrote "Cassie Chan." I was unaware that there was a Power Ranger in the Batfamily). A few characters have 'solos' (Bruce, Dick, Jason, Damian, Kate, Babs (2 in her case)), a bunch of them are all in 'Tec (the crowdedness of which is an entirely separate issue) a few of them appear in the books of other characters (Selina, Julia and Alfred), a few of them have only been appearing sporadically (Claire, Bette and Harper) and we don't know where Duke is gonna end up once his mini is over.

You have still JPV, Luke and Duke, they keep arround for some reason. And Mother Panic is another Bat-themed book that is also hardly selling.

[Assam]

You have still JPV, Luke and Duke they keep around for some reason.

The former two are included in the "bunch of them are all in 'Tec" and I mentioned Duke at the end as the one where we don't know where he's gonna end up. I could care less if Duke sticks around, but JPV is a favorite of mine and like his bromance with Luke, so yeah, happy to have them around. Just a shame that whenever the focus isn't on them in 'Tec, they're a complete non-presence.

And Mother Panic is another Bat-themed book that is also hardly selling.

Being a YA book DC obviously has much lower standards for its sales, but it's getting really low (and unlike Moon Girl who she's a little above she doesn't do amazing outside the direct market) so I imagine if the rebranding doesn't help things at all, it'll end.

[millernumber1]

Why does Snyder get called out for it when Johns been doing it for years in Green Lantern and WILLINGLY chased off an entire fanbase who will not return.

Bendis got this too for some reason with guy named Miles-who mainly stayed in his own book for 3 years.

I don't read Green Lanterns and Spider-Man, so I have no idea what the people who read them think about. Same with Flash.

Just the Robins and Batgirls isn't ideal for me at all, but I could live with it (with the idea in place that the other characters are still around and can appear at any time)

I agree that the other characters should not be erased, but given a solid end and then just show up in cameos every now and then. But as I've said over and over again, I really don't agree that the Batfamily is too big.

I think a large part of the sagging audiences for a lot of these smaller books is that DC is still struggling to build up its "younger" roster of writers. It's putting an incredible amount of marketing muscle on them, for example Steve Orlando, but as far as I can tell, Orlando has never delivered in terms of sales. Doubly so for Bennett. This has nothing to do with their talent - I think DC's talent pool is really strong. But they're not keeping enough of the writers who can sell on name at this point (I'd say King, Snyder, and Johns are the only real ones. I'm really curious to see what a Tynion book that doesn't have a Bat on the front sells like - the Mister Miracle test, if you will. I love the guy, though I have to admit his affinity for writing horror keeps me away from most of his creator-owned stuff - but I think it's really hard to tell if he can sell beyond Gotham because all of his huge successes - the Eternals, Tec, and Metal - are tied to Batman (and perhaps more importantly, to Snyder)). Snyder's done a ton to bring in new talent and try to help them out by doing a lot of co-writing, and to his credit, it doesn't seem to dilute his own brand (much as I'm not a Snyder fan). But he's a very rare case, I think.

[jbmasta]

Being a supporting character is all well and good, but if you're going to put someone at the forefront you need a reason for that. Duke's one of the main characters in the Batman Rebirth issue, but for ages afterwards he didn't do anything of consequence in the title apart from get close to Gotham Girl after she was Psycho Pirated. A lead character ideally needs a purpose. I get the impression he's Scott Snyder's attempt at a legacy character he doesn't know that to do with. For a character who's been around four or five years now we don't have a proper handle on who he is and what he contributes to the Batfamily.

As already mentioned, we've been told how amazing Duke is but haven't seen enough to back it up.

[Barbatos666]

You have still JPV, Luke and Duke, they keep arround for some reason. And Mother Panic is another Bat-themed book that is also hardly selling.

Selina was kept in near continuous print for about 2 decades. She will return in her own solo book, for now she's starring in Batman of all places. Sometimes characters just need a cooling off period. A major writer like King writing her in a major book can set the tone, direction and character arc for her that can lead to a successful book.
DC also continued Batgirl after Cass and have gained 100 plus issues using that brand.

[Assam]

I don't read Green Lanterns and Spider-Man, so I have no idea what the people who read them think about. Same with Flash.

Just speaking about Green Lanterns, I'm fairly certain that Skyvolt has a strong personal dislike of the book. But as I've told them before, the biggest difference between Simon and Jessica and Duke is that the former two have gotten amazing writing, characterization and development, whereas Duke has not. Honestly, I'm not even sure why any anger from John fans is directed at these two considering they're real opposition is the guy whose book he's forced to be background noise in.

This has nothing to do with their talent - I think DC's talent pool is really strong.

Definitely gonna have to disagree there. I don't even have a high opinion of my writing*, but I still feel I can write circles around a lot of these people. And I'm still a student.

*Please don't base your opinion of it off that fanfic I showed you months ago. My original stuff is much better.

I love the guy, though I have to admit his affinity for writing horror keeps me away from most of his creator-owned stuff

I picked up the first issue of Backstagers from him at a con (least I could do considering the info he gave me that day) Wasn't half bad.

[Assam]

Selina was kept in near continuous print for about 2 decades. She will return in her own solo book, for now she's starring in Batman of all places. Sometimes characters just need a cooling off period. A major writer like King writing her in a major book can set the tone, direction and character arc for her that can lead to a successful book.
DC also continued Batgirl after Cass and have gained 100 plus issues using that brand.

Not exactly sure what point you're trying to make here.

[Barbatos666]

As for Duke, I think its a myriad of factors. I think chief of which lies in Scott Snyder's own lack of any real idea of what Duke really is. Then there's also the fact that even if you're not a Duke hater you'll struggle with a character who isn't complex but has been made so by desire to make him bigger and more pushed. For example he shows up in Batman Rebirth then branches off to Batman and All Star but gets no code name, disappears from both books with in a few months after a lot of hoopla then shows up in Dark Days to get an underwhelming code name and powers out of nowhere and then jumps to his own mini. Before that he was in WAR as psuedo Robin and before that he was speculated to be Lark.

Putting a character in high profile books does gain exposure but if handled wrongly you also end up pissing more people than usual. Duke's story is scattered across different titles only out of need to make him more important. Then there's Harper who indirectly turns people off Duke.If Snyder just worked on him immediately after Damian's death without ever creating Harper and in shorter length arcs then the story would have been different for Duke imo. He may even have been Robin by now.

[Barbatos666]

Not exactly sure what point you're trying to make here.

DC didn't abandon Batgirl. They continued with Steph and Babs.

[millernumber1]

Definitely gonna have to disagree there. I don't even have a high opinion of my writing*, but I still feel I can write circles around a lot of these people. And I'm still a student.

*Please don't base your opinion of it off that fanfic I showed you months ago. My original stuff is much better.

I picked up the first issue of Backstagers from him at a con (least I could do considering the info he gave me that day) Wasn't half bad.

No judgment from me! But perhaps you think my judgment is too easily given, since I like Tynion so much. (It's actually kind of weird to be the one who loves a thing more than a lot of other people in a fan community. In one of my last fan communities, I was known as the guy who hates everything.)

[Assam]

DC didn't abandon Batgirl. They continued with Steph and Babs.

Yes, but what does that have to do with anything? Cass's book wasn't cancelled for low sales. Her book being the success it was is the only reason those two even got solos.

[Barbatos666]

Yes, but what does that have to do with anything? Cass's book wasn't cancelled for low sales. Her book being the success it was is the only reason those two even got solos.

Well tbh neither Cass, nor Selina, nor Damian or any other Batfamily have anything to do with this discussion. This is about Duke, lets stick to that.

[Aahz]

*Don't be thrown off by Skyvolt's list. Babs is only that high in the solo issue count if you count Birds of Prey and I believe what we're seeing now, like with Kate, is the real size of her current audience. No Nu52 hype or millennial relaunch hype. And while JPV did make it to 100 issues, his book actually was tanking by that point.

I still think that Barbara could do much better with a better creative team, and her main book is still outselling Batwoman, even if Kate has (at least imo) the better writing and art and gets a much bigger push from TEC.

When JPV made it to 100 issues, it was a very diffrent time, in the 90s they had some long running series for characters who would today hardly be able to carry a mini. And having Danny O'Niel as writer was probably also factor.

[jbmasta]

As for Duke, I think its a myriad of factors. I think chief of which lies in Scott Snyder's own lack of any real idea of what Duke really is. Then there's also the fact that even if you're not a Duke hater you'll struggle with a character who isn't complex but has been made so by desire to make him bigger and more pushed. For example he shows up in Batman Rebirth then branches off to Batman and All Star but gets no code name, disappears from both books with in a few months after a lot of hoopla then shows up in Dark Days to get an underwhelming code name and powers out of nowhere and then jumps to his own mini. Before that he was in WAR as psuedo Robin and before that he was speculated to be Lark.

Putting a character in high profile books does gain exposure but if handled wrongly you also end up pissing more people than usual. Duke's story is scattered across different titles only out of need to make him more important. Then there's Harper who indirectly turns people off Duke.If Snyder just worked on him immediately after Damian's death without ever creating Harper and in shorter length arcs then the story would have been different for Duke imo. He may even have been Robin by now.

Scott Snyder is trying to make Duke happen, but as you say doesn't know how to slot him in to the Batfamily organically and in a unique role. He's forgettable, and for a comic book character that isn't a good thing. There's a good character in there somewhere but until he gets an identity then he's not going to leave an impression.

[Assam]

I still think that Barbara could do much better with a better creative team, and her main book is still outselling Batwoman, even if Kate has (at least imo) the better writing and art and gets a much bigger push from TEC.

With a better creative team, I could maybe see her staying in the low-mid 20,000's for somewhat longer, Steph's sales basically, but I don't think she can actually be a big success on her own. Yes, both of her titles are now outselling Kate and Terry, both of which are also dropping faster, both outselling them isn't exactly a big deal.

When JPV made it to 100 issues, it was a very diffrent time, in the 90s they had some long running series for characters who would today hardly be able to carry a mini. And having Danny O'Niel as writer was probably also factor.

I was more talking about the fact that he shouldn't be counted as TOO big a success considering his book was at about 13,000 at the time of cancellation, but that's also a good point. These days poor JPV would probably be lucky not to be at those numbers by issue 6.