Game of Thrones

[Madam-Shogun-Assassin]

While it's true that since Neds death, the notion of being a good honorable person is arguably a handicap, I think Jon has done a descent job proving to be the exception. Not that Jon hasn't done some stupid things here and there... but for him everything for the most part does seem to work out. Plus, with all due respect, I don't think the idea was that Jon was ever the smartest guy in the room.

Jon just has plot armor, nothing more nothing less.

[MindofShadow]

[QUOTE=XPac;4342011]I wouldn't say he's a TERRIBLE leader... but certainly I agree he's not the best. And I don't think he was ever supposed to be shown as some sort of political or even militarily brilliant person. He's a leader that needs smarter people around him because he's not the smartest guy in the room. /QUOTE]

Which is why someone like Vary's wants him on the throne.

Not only is he a "good guy"... he can probably be controlled/manipulated by people like Varys and Tyrion.

Dany... not so much

[PwrdOn]

While it's true that since Neds death, the notion of being a good honorable person is arguably a handicap, I think Jon has done a descent job proving to be the exception. Not that Jon hasn't done some stupid things here and there... but for him everything for the most part does seem to work out. Plus, with all due respect, I don't think the idea was that Jon was ever the smartest guy in the room.

Jon's arc was fine until he met Dany, but ever since they hooked up it's just been cringe because the conflict is not so much between them, since he is clearly willing to step back and let her take charge, but between her and his supporters who want him to man up and put her in her place, and that just makes everyone look bad. Also, I just don't think the two of them have much chemistry with each other, so the romance itself falls flat.

[MindofShadow]

Jon just has plot armor, nothing more nothing less.

Every character still alive at this point had some degree of plot armor. That is a lazy excuse.

[XPac]

[QUOTE=MindofShadow;4342018]

I wouldn't say he's a TERRIBLE leader... but certainly I agree he's not the best. And I don't think he was ever supposed to be shown as some sort of political or even militarily brilliant person. He's a leader that needs smarter people around him because he's not the smartest guy in the room. /QUOTE]

Which is why someone like Vary's wants him on the throne.

Not only is he a "good guy"... he can probably be controlled/manipulated by people like Varys and Tyrion.

Dany... not so much

I think Varys bigger fear was that he could be manipulated by Dany. That's why he wasn't on board with the marriage sollution as Tyrion. Marriage or no marriage if push comes to shove, Dany is wearing the pants in that relationship.

But again, that's why a guy like Jon needs to surround himself with the right people. His family actually is pretty good safety net. Sansa and Arya are less naive than Jon, and while Bran can pretty much Google anyone and anything in Westeros. And Davos seems to be a good guy, who while not as brilliant as Vary or Tyrion, has a good head on his shoulders. As a whole package, I think team Stark would look pretty good on the throne. I can see why some would want that. Counting Sam, I think Jon would have the best cabinet in Westeros if they had that sort of thing.

[XPac]

Jon's arc was fine until he met Dany, but ever since they hooked up it's just been cringe because the conflict is not so much between them, since he is clearly willing to step back and let her take charge, but between her and his supporters who want him to man up and put her in her place, and that just makes everyone look bad. Also, I just don't think the two of them have much chemistry with each other, so the romance itself falls flat.

To a degree, it does make his sisters and evey Danys advisors look bad. But at the same time, I think it's well established that Jon doesn't want to be king. And he's perhaps a bit naive. You'll need people more cynical than Jon to push things to where they need to Jon. If Dany does begin to go off the rails it will take a LOT of proding for Jon to go against her as he doesn't not want to take the throne from her on a personal or professional level. Firstly because he doesn't want the job, secondly because it goes against his honor as he did swear loyalty to Dany, and thirdly because he loves her. So to get Jon to where he needs to be, everyone that knows his secret likely will have to be at least subtlely nudging him in that direction. He won't get there on his own, or at least he won't get there on his own very quickly.

[Madam-Shogun-Assassin]

Every character still alive at this point had some degree of plot armor. That is a lazy excuse.

Sure, but it's kinda gotten absurd now. With everyone

[AndrewCrossett]

I hear the term "plot armor" being thrown around a lot as if it's a bad thing. In order to have a story, some characters need to survive until the climax. It's not plot armor, it's plot.

"Plot armor" is why Luke Skywalker wasn't killed by the Sandpeople and Indiana Jones wasn't crushed by that rolling rock.

[Punisher007]

The trick is that you cannot blatantly show plot armor, it's supposed to be more subtle. And you cannot overdue it. That's why say, the White Hunt last season was such a lambasted thing, they exposed the ridiculous amounts of plot armor that certain characters had WAY too much. Same with the Battle of Winterfell for that matter.

[Doctor Know]

*laughs in series finale of LOST*

Add Heroes, Battlestar Galactica, Dexter, and True Blood.

It seems that after awhile, show-runners just stop caring and put anything they can on screen.

[XPac]

The trick is that you cannot blatantly show plot armor, it's supposed to be more subtle. And you cannot overdue it. That's why say, the White Hunt last season was such a lambasted thing, they exposed the ridiculous amounts of plot armor that certain characters had WAY too much. Same with the Battle of Winterfell for that matter.

In a situation like the Battle of WInterfell though, there's only so much you can. How do you logically justify Jamie or Grey Worm survivivng where hundreds of others warriors have fallen, apart from them simply surviving. There's no real logical reason short of just not having them in the fight for whatever reason.

[Emperor-of-Dragons]

Add Heroes, Battlestar Galactica, Dexter, and True Blood.

It seems that after awhile, show-runners just stop caring and put anything they can on screen.

Battlestar Galactica was good until the bizarre final 20 minutes lol

[KNIGHT OF THE LAKE]

I wouldn't say he's a TERRIBLE leader... but certainly I agree he's not the best. And I don't think he was ever supposed to be shown as some sort of political or even militarily brilliant person. He's a leader that needs smarter people around him because he's not the smartest guy in the room. But he is a guy you can trust, and someone that genuinely cares for his subjects... and even if he's not flat out brilliant he's not a complete moron either. For a lot of people in Westeros, I think that sounds pretty good.

I disagree about Jon not knowing whether or not he wants to be king. I absolutely believe he does not want the job. A point in time may come where he NEEDS to take the job, but that's out of need rather than out of want.

The problem is basically this, once you get to a point where you identify that a x character needs to live long enough to do x, you can either never put them in situations where they could die, or create that tension and pull it back. This show got away with it because certain major characters weren’t necessary for the endgame and it took awhile for people to figure out that Robb, Ned, and Catelyn weren’t the heroes and that Joffrey wasn’t the true villain.

Dany and Jon are the true heroes. Cersei is the true villain. Now you go back and see all the insane situations they survived that they shouldn’t hsve

[stingray]

Rhaegel was already in pretty bad shape after the Battle of Winterfell. He, along with the Unsullied and the other participants, needed to rest and recover before heading to King's Landing. Everyone is amazed he was killed so easily, but you had to know the Scorpion crossbows had to come into play sometime. I expected to lose one of the dragons, and I knew it wasn't going to be Drogon.

[Punisher007]

In a situation like the Battle of WInterfell though, there's only so much you can. How do you logically justify Jamie or Grey Worm survivivng where hundreds of others warriors have fallen, apart from them simply surviving. There's no real logical reason short of just not having them in the fight for whatever reason.

Or don't put them in situations where by all logic they should die, and we see others die in similar situations, but they survive with no logic than "the script says so."