Should We Consider Superdad A New Version of Superman?

[Last Son of Krypton]

Maybe its bad writing. Indeed it most likely is. But there have been enough discrepancies it's made me question exactly who it is we're reading.

Just lazy writing. They don't care about continuity (both new and old): https://youtu.be/8HXtrbVPQR8?t=3m20s

[TheCape]

Just lazy writing. They don't care about continuity (both new and old): https://youtu.be/8HXtrbVPQR8?t=3m20s

To be fair, that has been the case in the last 10 years for the main industry, maybe even more

[Last Son of Krypton]

To be fair, that has been the case in the last 10 years for the main industry, maybe even more

That's true. It isn't even a bad thing not being slave of continuity.

[TheCape]

I think that they really started beetween 2001 and 2003, maybe circa Infinite Crisis

[Kuwagaton]

Is it? I mean, it could be, absolutely. And Im not reading Action at all and am a few issues behind on Trinity and Justice League (which I dropped a few issues back), so I dont have the full picture. But these are traits that have been pretty consistent in everything I've read (Tomasi, Hickman, Manupaul) and while they're not totally against the post-Crisis version they were downplayed quite a lot. Or so it seems to me, but gods know I havent read post-Crisis in a long time.

Honestly, I look at writing Superman like dialing a phone number. Double edged sword, he has a ton of general quirks and qualities that one can elect to punch in. Punch in just about any combo and you'll reach someone... but for a worthwhile result, you really have to know who you're dialing.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Its the possible shift in history, if indeed Superdad's pre-Crisis memories go deeper than the SA stuff that got sprinkled on post-Crisis' failing years. It's the substantial shift in status quo. And if his personality, setting, and status quo are different enough from post-Crisis we'd have called it an Elseworlds at any other time, does that shared history add up to enough to call him the same version? Especially if there are changes to his history that further remove him from the post-Crisis mold?

I don't think that that would make him a new version, though. Remember that, after Infinite Crisis, basically the entire Silver Age history of the League was recanonized, including Batman, Wonder Woman, and Superman as founding members. We know that largely because of Meltzer's JLA directly referencing those stories via flashbacks. And after that, Morrison seemed to work a lot of Batman's Silver Age history back into the fold (like a certain yellow-clad Batwoman who had been thought lost to time). So, who's to say that Superman's Silver Age history wasn't part and parcel of what was brought back in after Infinite Crisis? It would make sense. If Batman's was and the League's was, why not Superman's?

So, this could just just be Pre-Flashpoint Superman, but we're finding out that he in fact remembered more of the Silver Age than we thought he did.

[Buried Alien]

Something worth thinking about.

Do you consider Batman, as he is currently presented, to be the same Batman as Post-COIE/Pre-Flashpoint Batman? New 52 Batman? Or someone else entirely.

Consider that a good 80-90% of his history is intact. Yes, the origins of Steph and Cass Cain are different, and a bunch of other details, such as Zero Year seemingly still being the official origin (though it seems parts of Year One are back in canon). But that apart, apart from the costume, its hard to see much of a substantive difference between the Batman Snyder wrote in the New 52, the Batman King is writing now, and the Batman we've had since 1987.

What about other DCU characters? Especially with the reveal that they are all the pre-Flashpoint versions with altered timelines. Is the Wally West in Titans right now the same as the classic pre-Flashpoint Wally? That's certainly how DC has been promoting him. Is the Wonder Woman Rucka writing the same as pre-Flashpoint Wonder Woman?

Because ultimately, I'd like to think that however we perceive all of DC's characters once the dust settles on Rebirth, our perception of Superman would be along the same lines.

I think everybody has changed substantially enough to not be considered the same characters they were thirty years ago...not by gradual and natural character development, but wholesale rewrites of their past histories. The broad strokes might be similar enough, but the devil is in the details. There's a substantial difference between a Dick Grayson who was Robin for between six to twelve years before becoming Nightwing and a Grayson who was only Robin for two years (at most) before making the switch. Even seemingly trivial details as each Robin having had a different suit (compared to Jason Todd inheriting the same design of Robin suit that Dick originally used) causes notable tonal changes to stories that alter their flavor a bit.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[bat39]

I think everybody has changed substantially enough to not be considered the same characters they were thirty years ago...not by gradual and natural character development, but wholesale rewrites of their past histories. The broad strokes might be similar enough, but the devil is in the details. There's a substantial difference between a Dick Grayson who was Robin for between six to twelve years before becoming Nightwing and a Grayson who was only Robin for two years (at most) before making the switch. Even seemingly trivial details as each Robin having had a different suit (compared to Jason Todd inheriting the same design of Robin suit that Dick originally used) causes notable tonal changes to stories that alter their flavor a bit.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Does that make them different characters though? Especially if past continuity is brought back? Or if its established in-universe that they were altered and that the old stories once held true (and still hold true in a sense)?

Let's examine Barry Allen for instance. During the New 52, I think one could make a decent enough argument that he was a different character, since pretty much his entire history was thrown out the window (even though technically we DID see Pre-Flashpoint Barry literally transforming into New 52 Barry).

But once Wally returns and expresses a knowledge of Barry's real past (including his marriage to Iris, death and return) and with characters like the Shade remembering details of that past (as does Superman no doubt) - then can we not acknowledge that its the same Barry from 30 years back who's had time stolen from his life? Much like how over at Marvel, Peter Parker is the same Peter Parker from 20 years back, except that his timeline was tweaked such that he never married MJ (which is a part of his history)?

If the whole contention of Rebirth is that these are the same characters who's lives have been messed with - then logically that should apply to Superman as well. EVEN if there have been changes to his backstory that contradict Pre-Flashpoint stuff.

[Ascended]

I think everybody has changed substantially enough to not be considered the same characters they were thirty years ago...not by gradual and natural character development, but wholesale rewrites of their past histories. The broad strokes might be similar enough, but the devil is in the details. There's a substantial difference between a Dick Grayson who was Robin for between six to twelve years before becoming Nightwing and a Grayson who was only Robin for two years (at most) before making the switch. Even seemingly trivial details as each Robin having had a different suit (compared to Jason Todd inheriting the same design of Robin suit that Dick originally used) causes notable tonal changes to stories that alter their flavor a bit.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Yes, this is what Ive been trying to get at, and tripping over my own tongue failing to express.

Does it really matter if Superdad has a roughly similar history to post-Crisis, when his personality and setting and status quo are different? Does it really add up to enough to call the guy the same version just because he got married and was murdered by Doomsday?

I dont know if it does. After all, most versions of Superman share the same general trajectory; doomed planet, brilliant scientists, kindly couple, Superman. I mean, Nuperman died (probably) at the hands of Doomsday, worked at the Planet and was friends with Lois, Jim, and Perry. He was a founding League member. He fought Lex Luthor and worked with Steel and has a super dog. But he's not post-Crisis, or pre-Crisis, he's his own version despite the similarities.

Sure, Superdad's history is a lot closer to post-Crisis than Nuperman's was, so the above example is slightly hyperbolic. But I think it illustrates the point well enough. At this juncture we're not even sure what post-Crisis history looked like. How much Silver Age did get added back in? Does that even matter? And the Silver Age history didn't get put back in place; new versions of those stories did. Kara Zor-El arrived on earth, but it wasn't the Kara from 1958; it was a new version of that character. So its not Silver Age history at all, just something that looks like it. Same with Clark's time with the Legion, Superman Red/Blue, the art-deco Krypton origin, and all the rest. It isnt the actual Silver Age, it just looks like it. No one pointed to post-Crisis and said "Hey, headbands and big space emblems were (once again) fashionable on Krypton! No more black robes and weird hoods! We're reading about pre-Crisis Superman again!"

If it turns out Superdad's history is like that; not actually post-Crisis but something very similar, then I think we're looking at a new version. Just like we dont consider the Kara who showed up in Superman-Batman the exact same Kara as pre-Crisis, Superdad would be a different Superman who has a similar backstory to post-Crisis.

Like I said when I started the discussion, Reborn will likely put this to rest one way or another. But Im struggling to see this guy as a straight up continuation of post-Crisis. DC says they're the same, but that alone makes me question whether its true.

[Ascended]

Does that make them different characters though? Especially if past continuity is brought back? Or if its established in-universe that they were altered and that the old stories once held true (and still hold true in a sense)?

Let's examine Barry Allen for instance. During the New 52, I think one could make a decent enough argument that he was a different character, since pretty much his entire history was thrown out the window (even though technically we DID see Pre-Flashpoint Barry literally transforming into New 52 Barry).

But once Wally returns and expresses a knowledge of Barry's real past (including his marriage to Iris, death and return) and with characters like the Shade remembering details of that past (as does Superman no doubt) - then can we not acknowledge that its the same Barry from 30 years back who's had time stolen from his life? Much like how over at Marvel, Peter Parker is the same Peter Parker from 20 years back, except that his timeline was tweaked such that he never married MJ (which is a part of his history)?

If the whole contention of Rebirth is that these are the same characters who's lives have been messed with - then logically that should apply to Superman as well. EVEN if there have been changes to his backstory that contradict Pre-Flashpoint stuff.

We consider the Supermen of earths 1 and 2 different, but they share the same backstory. And that's because at some point they were diverged and differences were established.

Superdad is a very different animal than post-Crisis. I see it as being very much a similar situation. He has roots in post-Crisis but I wonder if hes evolved into something brand new.

The five year break helps sell that divide.

[Atomic Man]

I'm not sure if getting THAT technical about it is going to help matters. Technically, Superman from around the early 1950's till 2011 was the SAME entity. The Earth 1 Superman became the Post-COIE Superman, who in turn became the Post-IC/Pre-Flashpoint Superman. Hell, we have technical evidence on page that Pre-Flashpoint Superman transformed into Post-Flashpoint Superman due to Barry and/or Pandora tampering with the timeline (which has retroactively been revealed as Manhattan).

If you're talking in terms of actual history and backstory, Superdad clearly seems to be the Pre-Flashpoint Superman, regardless of his precise origins in a 'technical' sense. Leaving aside what we learned from Convergence, he's clearly the Superman who knew Pre-Flashpoint Wally West, the Superman who was killed by Doomsday and came back, the Superman who married Lois Lane etc.

z

On what page of what comic do we see pre-Flashpoint Superman "become" New 52 Superman? I don't recall this happening explicitly, unless you're referring to the two-page spread at the end of the last issue of Flashpoint. If so, that was retconned by Convergence, which still happened despite DC (and many fans) trying to pretend it didn't.

I don't think that that would make him a new version, though. Remember that, after Infinite Crisis, basically the entire Silver Age history of the League was recanonized, including Batman, Wonder Woman, and Superman as founding members. We know that largely because of Meltzer's JLA directly referencing those stories via flashbacks. And after that, Morrison seemed to work a lot of Batman's Silver Age history back into the fold (like a certain yellow-clad Batwoman who had been thought lost to time). So, who's to say that Superman's Silver Age history wasn't part and parcel of what was brought back in after Infinite Crisis? It would make sense. If Batman's was and the League's was, why not Superman's?

So, this could just just be Pre-Flashpoint Superman, but we're finding out that he in fact remembered more of the Silver Age than we thought he did.

That's how I prefer to look at it. Infinite Crisis all but came out and established that post-COIE Superman was the Silver/Bronze Age guy altered by the effects of the Crisis. I think DC is using that same approach here, though this time, Superman was removed before the effects of the crisis (Flashpoint/Manhattan) took place. This means the guy from Convergence and L&C is the pre-Flashpoint Superman, though no one writing the books is going to spend too much time on that history because it would be burdensome from a storytelling perspective to do so. It's not like they'll have an issue with Wally and Clark having coffee and comparing notes on every events of the pre-Flashpoint timeline.

[Patrick Gerard]

We consider the Supermen of earths 1 and 2 different, but they share the same backstory. And that's because at some point they were diverged and differences were established.

Superdad is a very different animal than post-Crisis. I see it as being very much a similar situation. He has roots in post-Crisis but I wonder if hes evolved into something brand new.

The five year break helps sell that divide.

Is the Loeb/Kelly version distinct from Byrne and Birthright? They certainly dialed around elements of his backstory with For All Seasons, Return to Krypton 2, and a number of flashback scenes that made the Kents younger and different looking when they found Clark?

Is post-Zero Hour separate from Byrne? Or maybe just immediately post-Byrne? Since Byrne didn't intend any handwringing about the execution of the Phantom Zoners?

Is Bronze Age separate from Weisinger? There's even that story where he loops around the end of the universe which could explain the subtle changes?

How many wardrobe changes did Jor-El have between 1939 and 1986? Saturn symbol? Sun symbol? Short or long sleeve?

I more or less interpret there to be somewhere between one and four versions of Superman with the comics as an unreliable narrator. The details are unimportant if we don't treat them as reliable reporting.

[manofsteel1979]

The way I look at post Crisis is this...

Original post Crisis: Byrne's MOS to Zero Hour. (1986-1994) the original recipe rebooted Supes. History mapped out over 4 mini series ( MOS, WORLD OF KRYPTON, WORLD OF SMALLVILLE, WORLD OF METROPOLIS).

Post Crisis revised - Superman #0 issues through SUPERMAN #150 (1994-1999) - very little changed from Byrne era, except Kenny Braverman retconned into Clark's past,the year one annuals fleshed out events in and around MOS.very Event heavy. SUPERMAN FOR ALL SEASONS introduced at tail end of this era, effectively retcons much of Byrne's Smallville stuff out, particularly the idea of Clark being a Jock and the idea he left Smallville the day after he learns about his origins.

Loeb/Kelly revamp era SUPERMAN#151-SUPERMAN #200 ( 1999- 2004) biggest overhaul of Post Crisis since it started. Visual changes across the board. Most Post Crisis history still in play but details are treated fuzzier. Attempts to retcon Silver Age Krypton back into continiuity doesn't last long. More of a bronze age vibe with a very stripped down cast.BIRTHRIGHT introduced at the tail end of this era but not officially established as the new back story.

BIRTHRIGHT era- SUPERMAN #201-ADVENTURES OF SUPERMAN#649 (2004-2006) Both BIRTHRIGHT and MOS supposed to be in continuity. True beginning of the era Superman as Super-moper.

pre-Flashpoint SUPERMAN #650-SUPERMAN #704 ( 2006-2011)- BIRTRIGHT and MOS both out. history is hazy, but apparently his silver and Bronze Age history is canon again. Takes until 2009 to get a new Origin retelling with SECRET ORIGIN.

5 distinct versions that share some çontiniuity and elements , but the fact is it wasn't one monolithic era, but several short ones over the period of 25 years. Each got about an average of 5 years but some had less time. These things see 5 years of life, then it's time for a new approach. Whether or not we got Super Dad, there's no question Superman was going to have to see a new approach because he was again reaching that natural end of the cycle.Odds are, in 2021 ish, we will see the end of the current cycle and no doubt there will be changes.

[Kuwagaton]

It's a little odd that for all the complaints I see about DC not giving him an intact history like Spider-Man or whatever, the fan-made partitions are more specific and numerous than what DC does. They say Byrne's guy grew a mullet, fought Eradicator, etc. He's here now and there are still divisions made by readers.

[Ascended]

It's a little odd that for all the complaints I see about DC not giving him an intact history like Spider-Man or whatever, the fan-made partitions are more specific and numerous than what DC does. They say Byrne's guy grew a mullet, fought Eradicator, etc. He's here now and there are still divisions made by readers.

COIE was really a Pandora's Box that DC has never been able to close.

Which is a BS thing for me to say since I started this conversation, but still true.

In regard to the nature of differing versions, Im actually of the mind that there should be only "one" Superman, who has experienced the better part of all his history and is informed by everything that came before, not an arbitrary cut-off point signified by a change in direction or some other base, senseless factor. Essentially I believe in the "ultimate" Superman that some fans here are hoping to see at the end of Reborn (though I dont think they'll get what they want). I think that's the only way we can, as a fandom, get past the divide between "post-this" and "pre-that." And I believe that if DC ever wants to make Superman the viable, high-profit property it used to be, they need to bring that sense of consistency back to the franchise.

However, that's not the Superman we have. What we have is a Superman broken into segments, each with a substantial chunk of history removed or altered in unrecognizable ways and development that barely lasts longer than the creative team that introduced it (sometimes not even that long).

And even if DC were to say "Okay, here's some time travel, reality altering mumbo jumbo, and this is a Superman who has experienced all of his history! Look at the pre-Crisis elements wrapped around the post-Crisis ones, and here's some new developments we should have explored decades ago! Superman is whole for the first time since 86!" it'll take years for the fandom to heal and for those divides to disappear. Years, if not decades. If it ever happens at all; we fans have long memories after all.