Jason Todd: Robin, Red Hood, Arkham Knight Appreciation 2021

[RedBird]

Joker "hires" Sheila as bait, to make her pretend being a very much alive Catherine to lure Jason into a trap.

Just my idea from some time ago. Could work alright, I think.

Woah, I had that exact same idea some time ago too. Joker hiring Sheila who has no relation to Jason but just happens to be a look alike to Catherine.

But I think I still ultimately prefer the OG story, since this reworking still leaves the same glaring potholes as option B, like Jason not wondering how his mother is miraculously alive, and the slight differences between Sheila and Catherine, no matter how much they look alike.

Also, I think despite my negative feelings for how DITF plays out in the history of DC as mainly man pain for Bruce, I think that also helps to define Jason's return and an argument as Red Hood, of Jason being yet another victim and more collateral damage in Bruces war with Joker. Making it so Joker 100% lures Robin out might make it seem like Joker is making a direct attack on Jason, and has a personal vendetta with him, instead of using an incidental situation of a lost Robin, to just hurt Batman, which, I don't know, might muddy the waters a little on that aspect of Red Hoods story, depending on how it's told.

[Sergard]

Jason had big Anakin “What I Have Done???” Skywalker energy at the end of the last issue so his reaction here doesn’t surprise me.

I'm not surprised either. But since Jason already considers his action a mistake (although I personally believe the kid is better off this way), I must wonder what Bruce' role is in this whole story.

Blonde Catherine makes me wonder if they're still deleting Sheila

My guess: Coloring mistake (Suzie Su switched from redhead to blonde in Red Hood: Outlaw too.). Or they didn't want to have another redhead in the story. They already have Barbara and the kid.

[Zaresh]

My guess: Coloring mistake (Suzie Su switched from redhead to blonde in Red Hood: Outlaw too.). Or they didn't want to have another redhead in the story. They already have Barbara and the kid.

I somehow doubt it's a colouring mistake, even if they do change her hair to orange or red in the final version. Could be she's a blonde, or we can pretend she dyed her hair blond. At this point, I think Catherine has had her hair in every colour possible xD.

I liked the preview a lot, by the way (I didn't commented before).

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

Woah, I had that exact same idea some time ago too. Joker hiring Sheila who has no relation to Jason but just happens to be a look alike to Catherine.

But I think I still ultimately prefer the OG story, since this reworking still leaves the same glaring potholes as option B, like Jason not wondering how his mother is miraculously alive, and the slight differences between Sheila and Catherine, no matter how much they look alike.

Also, I think despite my negative feelings for how DITF plays out in the history of DC as mainly man pain for Bruce, I think that also helps to define Jason's return and an argument as Red Hood, of Jason being yet another victim and more collateral damage in Bruces war with Joker. Making it so Joker 100% lures Robin out might make it seem like Joker is making a direct attack on Jason, and has a personal vendetta with him, instead of using an incidental situation of a lost Robin, to just hurt Batman, which, I don't know, might muddy the waters a little on that aspect of Red Hoods story, depending on how it's told.

The crux of Jason as Red Hood was never about the Joker, it was always about Bruce. Even Jason isn't really mad at the Joker for getting killed but is more for what he did (and continues to do) to countless others. And Jason acknowledges and understands this to a certain degree. when he talks about his death is always in the context that it was something that was bound to happen if you put a kid to do something like that, who carries more blame between Bruce and Jason changes at editorial whims but ultimately the conflict is always between Jason and Bruce, the Joker is just a rabid dog that puts the events in motion. This is why is so frustrating to see writers push the reset button and have them back at each others' throats at the slightest opportunity, the characters just aren't allowed to mature and become better.

The big irony of the original UTRH is that Bruce really did try to kill Joker in retaliation for Jason and freaking Superman had to talk him down but no one in-universe or any writer has bothered to confront Jason with that nugget of information.

I somehow doubt it's a colouring mistake, even if they do change her hair to orange or red in the final version. Could be she's a blonde, or we can pretend she dyed her hair blond. At this point, I think Catherine has had her hair in every colour possible xD.

She was a brunette in Tynion's Year Zero tie-in

[Zaresh]

She was a brunette in Tynion's Year Zero tie-in

She was also a brunette pre-COIE, iirc, if that does count.

[RedBird]

The crux of Jason as Red Hood was never about the Joker, it was always about Bruce. Even Jason isn't really mad at the Joker for getting killed but is more for what he did (and continues to do) to countless others. And Jason acknowledges and understands this to a certain degree. when he talks about his death is always in the context that it was something that was bound to happen if you put a kid to do something like that, who carries more blame between Bruce and Jason changes at editorial whims but ultimately the conflict is always between Jason and Bruce, the Joker is just a rabid dog that puts the events in motion. This is why is so frustrating to see writers push the reset button and have them back at each others' throats at the slightest opportunity, the characters just aren't allowed to mature and become better.

I know, and I absolutely agree, it's why I was saying that changing the story and adding additional layers to DITF by having Joker conduct some grand years long plan just to specifically get Jason in the warehouse is nonsensical as well as needless. As you said, the crux of Red Hood should be about Bruce, at the time, Joker was just targeting Robin, not Jason, so adding a more personal layer to the situation by having Joker specifically target Jason Todd does nothing but muddy the waters since there's no need to add more significance to what Joker did to Jason outside of the fact that he is, as you put it, a 'rabid dog' in this situation, with Jasons whole problem being with the person (Bruce) who refuses to put down this 'rabid dog'.

The big irony of the original UTRH is that Bruce really did try to kill Joker in retaliation for Jason and freaking Superman had to talk him down but no one in-universe or any writer has bothered to confront Jason with that nugget of information.

It's amazing how much could be resolved if these two just, talked. For once.

[Sergard]

[...]

The big irony of the original UTRH is that Bruce really did try to kill Joker in retaliation for Jason and freaking Superman had to talk him down but no one in-universe or any writer has bothered to confront Jason with that nugget of information.

[...]

So did Dick Grayson. Still didn't stop him from acting like a complete narcissist during the trial of Batwoman. Double standards and hypocrisy are omnipresent in the bat franchise. Always quick to judge others and always quick to ignore own faults. Or how the saying goes: "They see the dust in the eye of their neighbour, but don't see the beam in their own eyes."

I doubt that this piece of information would change anything.

[...]

It's amazing how much could be resolved if these two just, talked. For once.

Judging by the very little we've seen in issue #1, I doubt Batman wants to talk (like always). And judging by the preview of issue #2, Barbara - and not Bruce - is there for emotional support. And maybe Leslie.

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

I know, and I absolutely agree, it's why I was saying that changing the story and adding additional layers to DITF by having Joker conduct some grand years long plan just to specifically get Jason in the warehouse is nonsensical as well as needless. As you said, the crux of Red Hood should be about Bruce, at the time, Joker was just targeting Robin, not Jason, so adding a more personal layer to the situation by having Joker specifically target Jason Todd does nothing but muddy the waters since there's no need to add more significance to what Joker did to Jason outside of the fact that he is, as you put it, a 'rabid dog' in this situation, with Jasons whole problem being with the person (Bruce) who refuses to put down this 'rabid dog'.

You're mixing things up, the Red Hood is about Jason and Bruce, DITF is about Bruce and the Joker, Jason just got caught in the crossfire. Or at least the N52 version is, the original didn't really have a clear direction or a plan in mind it was just a bunch of coincidences that led to Jason getting killed. That is why I find the N52 version superior. If the Joker planned everything it makes sense for Jason to leave Bruce's side and walking into Joker's trap, plus it gives Bruce a more humane characterization since he actually went after Jason instead of just crossing paths with him.

Overall, the original DITF is pretty clearly a story that was only a means to an end and never had a lot of thought put into it. I find it a lot more unbelievable that Jason's mom just happened to be one of Joker's old cronies and meeting with him again just as Jason looked for her than to have Joker engineer everything just to screw over Batman.

So did Dick Grayson. Still didn't stop him from acting like a complete narcissist during the trial of Batwoman. Double standards and hypocrisy are omnipresent in the bat franchise. Always quick to judge others and always quick to ignore own faults. Or how the saying goes: "They see the dust in the eye of their neighbor, but don't see the beam in their own eyes."

If you're going to blame anyone, blame the writers. They're the ones that keep turning Bruce into an ******* and Jason into an emotional wreck since ultimately, they lack any agency. The writers are the ones that could tackle all the situations you mention but ultimately decide to not to, for whatever reason.

[RedBird]

You're mixing things up, the Red Hood is about Jason and Bruce, DITF is about Bruce and the Joker, Jason just got caught in the crossfire. Or at least the N52 version is, the original didn't really have a clear direction or a plan in mind it was just a bunch of coincidences that led to Jason getting killed. That is why I find the N52 version superior. If the Joker planned everything it makes sense for Jason to leave Bruce's side and walking into Joker's trap, plus it gives Bruce a more humane characterization since he actually went after Jason instead of just crossing paths with him.

Overall, the original DITF is pretty clearly a story that was only a means to an end and never had a lot of thought put into it. I find it a lot more unbelievable that Jason's mom just happened to be one of Joker's old cronies and meeting with him again just as Jason looked for her than to have Joker engineer everything just to screw over Batman.

No, I didn't mix anything up. I don't know how you came to that conclusion. I already made it clear that, Red Hood (UTRH) is about Jason and Bruce, and that DITF is about Bruce and Joker, it's why adding a personal element between Joker and Jason in DITF is nonsensical and needless.

My entire argument was about keeping those elements separate in any rewrite for DITF, since adding a factor of Joker specifically targeting Jason Todd, especially all the way from back when he was just a kid on the streets then makes it so Jokers plans are extended to mess with Jason instead of something to mess with Bruce. That is unnecessary and goes against the argument that ditf is between Bruce and Joker, and that Joker is just a 'rabid dog'.

But if your argument is about specifically claiming the New52 retelling to be superior then I'm just going to have to pull a hard, agree to disagree on that one. Ditf was not a great story to begin with, but the New52 retelling added so many needless details that extended outside the original story and basically made it so Jason became Robin based on Jokers wants and desires, which is absurd on top of being amazingly insulting to both Jason and Bruces agency as characters, reshaping the narrative so that Jason and Bruces time as Batman and Robin isn't their own personal story, but is actually just Jokers story where they are nothing but pawns playing their part. What an insult to their existence, especially Jason's.

The new52 version adds a godlike clairvoyance to Joker by having him randomly choose Jason Todd the street kid, and having it be Jokers choice that this random street kid becomes Batmans Robin. Making it so that Joker has a years long plan of ensuring that Willis is taken to jail, overdosing Catherine so that she looks dead and enough that Jason is convinced, and then picking her body up from the morgue to take her to Qurac where she'll live her life now no questions asked, dropping Jason off at Leslies and ensuring Jason becomes robin, then using images of Catherine to peak Jasons interest years later down the line, and all of this to what? Get Jason to a certain warehouse?

Even if you dislike the original DITF, there are much easier ways to get Jason to that warehouse than saying that Joker should have shaped his entire life from start to finish. (It's the whole reason why I was discussing with Zaresh a retelling with the possibility of Joker hiring someone who looks like Catherine to lure Jason, since first off it makes more sense for Joker to only have enough interest in looking into Jasons life AFTER he is associated with Batman not before as a random streetkid, and secondly, it doesn't require a ridiculous years long plan, just enough research to know who the current Robin is and who he lost (Catherine), but even then I was contemplating whether that too creates too much connection between Joker and Jason, and reduces the impact that this is meant to be a story of Bruce vs Joker with Jason just caught in the middle.)

In terms of getting Jason to that warehouse, the only major coincidence of OG DITF is that Sheila was working for Joker, but with Joker being a super villain, the idea that he had his fingers in many pies, even around the world, is still no where near as big, as far fetched, or as dumb of a coincidence as shaping someone's entire life just for one off chance moment, and that's not even mentioning how the new52 simultaneously robs the important characters (Bruce and Jason) of all agency that they ever could have had in such a disrespectful way. DITF does need a major retelling, even in the elements that only concern Jason's story, (for instance all that search for the right mother stuff can go,) but it needs a retelling that takes away the absurd and silly elements, not one that adds even more.

[Eto]

Do you think the Robins book will see the day of light?
If yes, will the stories be to Jason's advantage or not so much?

[RedBird]

Do you think the Robins book will see the day of light?
If yes, will the stories be to Jason's advantage or not so much?

I think it's safe to assume it will be released.

But personally speaking, and this is based on the several previous iterations of the Robins coming together that we've seen, for me there's no indication that the book will provide Jason anything of value in terms of meaningful or substantial storytelling, if anything it's more likely that Jason will at worst, be presented as the 'dunce' of the group to highlight the other Robins, or at best, be the 'wise cracker' with nothing of importance to add to the overall story. Mind you, he is not the only one that I assume will gain little from this book. However, as always though, this is the kind of case, where I hope I'm absolutely wrong, and that Seeley knocks it out of the park, with fun and meaningful interactions amongst the entire group that allow them all to shine and add to whatever the narrative is.

[RedBird]

This may be revealed later on in story anyway, but never the less, regarding the preview, I was wondering how you guys interpreted Catherine's situation?

At first I read it as Catherine only having a few dollars for bread because the majority of their money is being used by her to supply her drug addiction. However, upon rereading it, I realised that it may be even darker, and that Catherine really does only have a few dollars in her possession, with the implication of her drug dealer coming over and of her sending Jason away to mean that she is sleeping with her drug dealer as a sort of compensation for the drugs he supplies her with.

[Zaresh]

This may be revealed later on in story anyway, but never the less, regarding the preview, I was wondering how you guys interpreted Catherine's situation?

At first I read it as Catherine only having a few dollars for bread because the majority of their money is being used by her to supply her drug addiction. However, upon rereading it, I realised that it may be even darker, and that Catherine really does only have a few dollars in her possession, with the implication of her drug dealer coming over and of her sending Jason away to mean that she is sleeping with her drug dealer as a sort of compensation for the drugs he supplies her with.

Or she has more cash in her wallet, but she couldn't spare it because she needed it for the drugs. But.. I think it's your second guess. She doesn't seem to have more money on her so, how is she going to pay the dealer? And she sends Jason off, so he doesn't see it happen.

[RedBird]

Or she has more cash in her wallet, but she couldn't spare it because she needed it for the drugs.

Sorry I wasn't clear with that first reading, yeah I meant that she does have money, like you said in her wallet, but is using it to supply her drug addiction.

But.. I think it's your second guess. She doesn't seem to have more money on her so, how is she going to pay the dealer? And she sends Jason off, so he doesn't see it happen.

Yeah I get a bad feeling it's the second option too.

[RedBird]

Also heads up, Bleeding Cool just released another page from issue #2 of Urban Legends that is a massive spoiler connected to the scene in the preview. Seriously, be warned, spoiler.