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  1. #526
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I wonder how seriously we're supposed to take Kate's seeming flippancy towards whether any of the people they fought actually died.
    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    It just feels weird to me that a civilian would really be so blase about that kind of stuff, but I guess they're working by action hero/MCU Hero logic.

    Like how you don't overthink Spider-Man killing some aliens while trying to keep the Multiversal villains alive.
    This annoys me about characters like that. They act like they're heroes but assume that gives them the right to do whatever they want. And anyone disagreeing with them is villainized. Yet the MCU is weirdly selective about when killing villains is and and when it isn't. Like, US Agent is evil for killing someone who helped kill Lamar but Clint is absolved of murdering many more who did nothing to him. Or how some henchmen are worthy of being killed but villains like Green Goblin or Doc Ock can be reformed.

    And even if they're like that in the comics, that doesn't make the comics any better. It's good to see heroes reflect on their actions and actually deal with the consequences of their actions. What's crazy to me is, of all the MCU D+ protagonists, Loki, the most evil one, shows the most introspection and consideration for his actions. That's partially why it's the best show so far. I can't say Kate all that impressed me as a character by contrast
    Last edited by CosmiComic; 01-19-2022 at 06:01 PM.

  2. #527
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    Quote Originally Posted by 80sbaby View Post
    Well I say they're mindless because we saw them literally tearing themselves apart to get through the barrier in Wakanda. They were clearly base, animal intelligent. They were fodder, basically.

    But yeah, Maw was different lol
    I think if those alien monsters are trying to kill them then the heroes have the right to defend themselves.

    Maw is a murkier situation. Maybe that was their only option but I can't be sure.

  3. #528
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    Quote Originally Posted by CosmiComic View Post
    This annoys me about characters like that. They act like they're heroes but assume that gives them the right to do whatever they want. And anyone disagreeing with them is villainized. Yet the MCU is weirdly selective about when killing villains is and and when it isn't. Like, US Agent is evil for killing someone who helped kill Lamar but Clint is absolved of murdering many more who did nothing to him. Or how some henchmen are worthy of being killed but villains like Green Goblin or Doc Ock can be reformed.

    And even if they're like that in the comics, that doesn't make the comics any better. It's good to see heroes reflect on their actions and actually deal with the consequences of their actions. What's crazy to me is, of all the MCU D+ protagonists, Loki, the most evil one, shows the most introspection and consideration for his actions. That's partially why it's the best show so far. I can't say Kate all that impressed me as a character by contrast
    I don't think anyone was saying Walker was evil, just that he lost control of himself and killed someone in cold blood while in a rage, and that was wrong. Especially as an agent of the American government and wearing an American symbol.

    Clint...is less so of an important public figure, so I guess what he does kind of just slips through the cracks, and he basically keeps trying to retire. Not that it justifies what he did.

    I thought Kate came off pretty likeable but if you don't buy into her belief in Clint or her not being critical of him, she might not come off as well.

  4. #529
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I don't think anyone was saying Walker was evil, just that he lost control of himself and killed someone in cold blood while in a rage, and that was wrong. Especially as an agent of the American government and wearing an American symbol.

    Clint...is less so of an important public figure, so I guess what he does kind of just slips through the cracks, and he basically keeps trying to retire. Not that it justifies what he did.

    I thought Kate came off pretty likeable but if you don't buy into her belief in Clint or her not being critical of him, she might not come off as well.
    I feel like it's important to note here as well that MCU Clint is AN ASSASSIN. He literally killed people for a living as an agent of SHIELD. It's not an accident that his most famous act is NOT killing Black Widow when he was instructed to. He, like her, wants to be more than his very particular skill set. But it is still his skill set.

    People don't bat an eye when an assassin kills someone. Even when an aspiring reformed assassin does so. That's different than when someone like Walker kills while draped in very particular symbols.

    It is absolutely true that the MCU has a bit of a problem glossing over some of the actions it's heroes take. Ronin being one of the biggest offenders. But I think part of the problem is less with consequences and more with visibility. We see Clint as Hawkeye as a hero in most of the things we see him in, so we don't really stop to think about what his role in SHIELD was or how he uses the skills we know he has. But then when we are confronted with that reality there is a bit of dissonance there.

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    There's also the fact that the guy Walker killed was actively running away, which somewhat (effectiveness can be debated) mirrors police brutality. Walker had him and could have incapacitated him; he chose to kill him instead.

  6. #531
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I don't think anyone was saying Walker was evil, just that he lost control of himself and killed someone in cold blood while in a rage, and that was wrong. Especially as an agent of the American government and wearing an American symbol.

    Clint...is less so of an important public figure, so I guess what he does kind of just slips through the cracks, and he basically keeps trying to retire. Not that it justifies what he did.

    I thought Kate came off pretty likeable but if you don't buy into her belief in Clint or her not being critical of him, she might not come off as well.
    About Walker, I'm also kinda talking about the fans. I've had discussions with people who seemed to think John was worse than Clint when IMO he clearly isn't. I don't think it matters whether John is wearing a bunch of symbols or not. Clint still killed a bunch of people who had nothing to do with him whereas John just came out of a combat situation and watched his best friend get killed. I get the sense some people are more pissed off that John isn't Steve than Clint killing without reason, which honestly baffles me

    And yeah, I don't buy Kate's unwavering belief in Clint. It's the same reason why I could never get into Sam or Bucky: they're all too fanboy/girl-ish. Contrast that with someone like Rhodey, who doesn't always buy Tony's nonsense and vice versa. Or even Vision who didn't just accept whatever Wanda did and actually challenged her. Not simply acting smug towards anyone who disagrees with their idol

    Quote Originally Posted by ZeroBG82 View Post
    I feel like it's important to note here as well that MCU Clint is AN ASSASSIN. He literally killed people for a living as an agent of SHIELD. It's not an accident that his most famous act is NOT killing Black Widow when he was instructed to. He, like her, wants to be more than his very particular skill set. But it is still his skill set.

    People don't bat an eye when an assassin kills someone. Even when an aspiring reformed assassin does so. That's different than when someone like Walker kills while draped in very particular symbols.

    It is absolutely true that the MCU has a bit of a problem glossing over some of the actions it's heroes take. Ronin being one of the biggest offenders. But I think part of the problem is less with consequences and more with visibility. We see Clint as Hawkeye as a hero in most of the things we see him in, so we don't really stop to think about what his role in SHIELD was or how he uses the skills we know he has. But then when we are confronted with that reality there is a bit of dissonance there.
    Being an assassin doesn't really make it better to me, though. It just means the Avengers overlook their buddies doing the wrong thing, at least until it affects them, or they don't like the person. I'm not necessarily a fan of assassins, but if there's some level of control, they could perhaps be held accountable. Who's holding guys like Clint accountable? And since when does being a bad guy mean one deserves to die? Plus, how exactly do these people know when not to kill? Black Widow was a killer in the past but Clint doesn't shoot her, so how does he know to do that? Same with Kate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bunch of Coconuts View Post
    There's also the fact that the guy Walker killed was actively running away, which somewhat (effectiveness can be debated) mirrors police brutality. Walker had him and could have incapacitated him; he chose to kill him instead.
    John was still in the wrong there but how is that worse than Clint hunting down a bunch of people he had no connection to and brutally killing them? And John at least suffered consequences, albeit fairly light for murdering a surrendering combatant. What did Clint deal with? He spent his whole show avoiding consequences.
    Last edited by CosmiComic; 01-20-2022 at 07:35 AM.

  7. #532
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    Yeah, the way Ronin was introduced on the show I thought the series would be more about Clint having to deal with the repercussions of his years-long murderous rampage - especially when we were given a face to one of his victims in the form of Maya's dad. Instead, Clint threatens Maya for trying to get revenge (with the easy excuse that he's now protecting his family) and then passing the buck along to Fisk instead of owning up to his actions or having to deal with it. I mean, did he even apologize for murdering her father? I was disappointed in how they handled all that. They set it up only to side-step it in the end.

  8. #533
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    "I think the "big reveal" of Kingpin relies on the viewer being familiar with the character from his appearances in the Netflix shows (or maybe form the comics?). Not a good call, since the audience for Hawkeye is very different from Daredevil. For example, my 17 year-old daughter had no interest in the Netflix shows, but was very invested in Hawkeye. Needless to say, Fisk's "surprise" appearance was a big "so what?" from her.

    I get what Disney was trying to accomplish here: revealing the Kingpin as the Big Bad, but there's just not enough recognition for that to work. Even most of the people who watched the Netflix series probably had at best a fuzzy memory of the character. A better approach would have been a slow burn. Introduce the character a few episodes earlier, establish him as a menace, then have the big showdown. If you can't have him brutally main/murder a few TSM over some perceived slight because of your audience, just don't use the character."

    This above comment reflects my view on Hawkeye. I have a vague awareness of Fisk from the comics and the cartoons (and that awful 2003 Daredevil movie), but I know nothing about the Netflix version. And I don't think inserting Kingpin into the Hawkeye series really worked. Whatever your views on the characters who appeared in Hawkeye, I think it's safe to say that Kate and Yelena are the most popular. I really like Echo (and the actress playing her seems to be a really great person). But Hawkeye made her just another angry lady driven by revenge (like Sylvie in Loki). I'm not sure her own series will attract a lot of viewers...Unless Kingpin and Daredevil show up. I think it's wonderful we're getting some deaf and Native American representation, but I don't think they're enough to sustain a show. And I'm VERY sympathetic to Alaqua Cox. She had absolutely NO acting experience before Hawkeye, and now she's supposed to represent a couple of marginalized groups in a major MCU property? That's a LOT of pressure. I feel the same way with Iman Vellani and Ms. Marvel. I don't think Vellani has had any acting experience before Ms. Marvel, and now she's gonna be representing South Asian and Muslim communities in the MCU? Again, it seems like a tremendous pressure to me. Look up Dominique Thorne. She's gonna be the first Black American woman headlining a show in the MCU in Ironheart. And once again, she doesn't have much acting experience at all. PRESSURE. I'm definitely okay with Monica Rambeau, Brie Larson, Don Cheadle showing up to support these actresses. But when it comes to Hawkeye, I feel they introduced WAY too many characters into that show when they didn't need to. And I'm not even sure if Clint actually "retired".

  9. #534
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZeroBG82 View Post
    I feel like it's important to note here as well that MCU Clint is AN ASSASSIN. He literally killed people for a living as an agent of SHIELD. It's not an accident that his most famous act is NOT killing Black Widow when he was instructed to. He, like her, wants to be more than his very particular skill set. But it is still his skill set.

    People don't bat an eye when an assassin kills someone. Even when an aspiring reformed assassin does so. That's different than when someone like Walker kills while draped in very particular symbols.

    It is absolutely true that the MCU has a bit of a problem glossing over some of the actions it's heroes take. Ronin being one of the biggest offenders. But I think part of the problem is less with consequences and more with visibility. We see Clint as Hawkeye as a hero in most of the things we see him in, so we don't really stop to think about what his role in SHIELD was or how he uses the skills we know he has. But then when we are confronted with that reality there is a bit of dissonance there.
    This show reminded me why I'm not a big Ultimate Hawkeye fan.

    I think there's a lot of tonal/ethical dissonance in MCU content.
    Quote Originally Posted by CosmiComic View Post
    About Walker, I'm also kinda talking about the fans. I've had discussions with people who seemed to think John was worse than Clint when IMO he clearly isn't. I don't think it matters whether John is wearing a bunch of symbols or not. Clint still killed a bunch of people who had nothing to do with him whereas John just came out of a combat situation and watched his best friend get killed. I get the sense some people are more pissed off that John isn't Steve than Clint killing without reason, which honestly baffles me
    Well, Bucky and Sam were definitely more unfair to Walker for not being Steve than I feel like they should've been.
    And yeah, I don't buy Kate's unwavering belief in Clint. It's the same reason why I could never get into Sam or Bucky: they're all too fanboy/girl-ish. Contrast that with someone like Rhodey, who doesn't always buy Tony's nonsense and vice versa. Or even Vision who didn't just accept whatever Wanda did and actually challenged her. Not simply acting smug towards anyone who disagrees with their idol
    I think hero-worship can be justified but also a two-edged sword, it's just that Steve actually warranted to a degree the way Sam and Bucky looked up to or respected him so much. I guess Kate's opinion of Clint never really changed that much in the show.

    I think it's different for Rhodey and Vision because Rhodey and Tony are best friends long before they were heroes and there's an equality in their relationship that's not replicable in another relationship and Vision was Wanda's husband. I just don't see it as completely comparable.
    Quote Originally Posted by j9ac9k View Post
    Yeah, the way Ronin was introduced on the show I thought the series would be more about Clint having to deal with the repercussions of his years-long murderous rampage - especially when we were given a face to one of his victims in the form of Maya's dad. Instead, Clint threatens Maya for trying to get revenge (with the easy excuse that he's now protecting his family) and then passing the buck along to Fisk instead of owning up to his actions or having to deal with it. I mean, did he even apologize for murdering her father? I was disappointed in how they handled all that. They set it up only to side-step it in the end.
    He came off as deflecting the blame for it to Kingpin and Kazi so she wouldn't come after him, even though he was the one who actually killed her father, but he seemed to be trying to relate to her as being used as a weapon which...just felt kind of weird.

    And because Maya realized she can't actually beat him, she's probably going to drop her (justified) vendetta. Which just feels kind of weird in a Superhero story.

  10. #535
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    Okay, seeing what they are wearing, I can give them late fall, MAYBE November in Ohio. But by December, it should be snowing. And Elanor Bishop didn't even know her daughter was working with Clint until a few days before Christmas.

    I guess what I would have liked would have been to find out that Valentina sent Yelena after Clint for some reason, and then when Yelena caught wind of a contract being offered to kill him, she took it to make sure no one else got to kill him before she did.


    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I wonder how seriously we're supposed to take Kate's seeming flippancy towards whether any of the people they fought actually died.
    Well, on one hand, those people are actively trying to kill her, so that (at least for me) justifies her probably killing them first. But on the other hand- yeah, she has skills, but she's still a civilian who has never done the kind of wetwork that Clint has done in the past, so taking a life should weigh her down. I think at the end of the day, we are supposed to take it that events are happening so fast that she never really has time to consider the ramifications of what she has done. It could be interesting, if they get a second season, to delve into that and show her suffering from guilt. And have Clint or Yelena (or both) help her through that. Realistically though, this is Disney and we'd never get something like that.

  11. #536
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnakinFlair View Post
    Well, on one hand, those people are actively trying to kill her, so that (at least for me) justifies her probably killing them first. But on the other hand- yeah, she has skills, but she's still a civilian who has never done the kind of wetwork that Clint has done in the past, so taking a life should weigh her down. I think at the end of the day, we are supposed to take it that events are happening so fast that she never really has time to consider the ramifications of what she has done. It could be interesting, if they get a second season, to delve into that and show her suffering from guilt. And have Clint or Yelena (or both) help her through that. Realistically though, this is Disney and we'd never get something like that.
    Yes your first half is what I was hoping for on the show, but do think your last bit is what will actually happen.

  12. #537
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    IMHO, the key difference in John Walker's murder of that Flag Smasher is that as Captain America, you're a symbol. You're supposed to represent the best that America has to offer. John killed a man literally begging for his life, who wasn't even the one responsible for his partner's death. Cameras or not, that's not an action the best of America is supposed to take. Remember in Winter Soldier when that SHIELD agent thought Steve was threatening to throw him off the roof and observed that it wasn't his style? Steve agreed. That's the example John had to follow (granted, then let Natasha throw him off, but the plan always was for Sam to catch him). Like becoming an Avenger, Clint just kind of fell into becoming this role model for Kate. It's something he never intended given his prior career. His entire life prior to becoming an Avenger was to be as under the radar as possible. John agreed to embody the country's best. The entire world saw what the US government considered their best that day. To say that everyone should've been more than a little concerned is an understatement.
    Keep in mind that you have about as much chance of changing my mind as I do of changing yours.

  13. #538
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    This kind of reminds me of Arrow which basically had a season-spanning arc of Oliver Queen having to wrap his head around the people he's killed, his vigilantism, and whether he was a Superhero...but this was basically the equivalent of a Superhero Christmas movie so they don't have the equivalent of the many seasons Arrow had.

  14. #539
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    Quote Originally Posted by j9ac9k View Post
    Yeah, the way Ronin was introduced on the show I thought the series would be more about Clint having to deal with the repercussions of his years-long murderous rampage - especially when we were given a face to one of his victims in the form of Maya's dad. Instead, Clint threatens Maya for trying to get revenge (with the easy excuse that he's now protecting his family) and then passing the buck along to Fisk instead of owning up to his actions or having to deal with it. I mean, did he even apologize for murdering her father? I was disappointed in how they handled all that. They set it up only to side-step it in the end.
    I never liked the whole family excuse, as if it allows a hero to do whatever he wants. I don't necessarily mourn the death of violent gangsters and criminals, but it doesn't excuse Clint being all smug and not thinking how he put his own supposedly important family in danger. In fact his insta-wife and kids just come off as plot devices since he forgot about them in Civil War too

  15. #540
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    This show reminded me why I'm not a big Ultimate Hawkeye fan.

    I think there's a lot of tonal/ethical dissonance in MCU content.
    I'd just like more consistency about the ethics

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Well, Bucky and Sam were definitely more unfair to Walker for not being Steve than I feel like they should've been.
    I don't disagree. While John was a jerk, so were they, to almost everyone in the show.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I think hero-worship can be justified but also a two-edged sword, it's just that Steve actually warranted to a degree the way Sam and Bucky looked up to or respected him so much. I guess Kate's opinion of Clint never really changed that much in the show.
    I don't think it's ever justified to this degree. Especially when they're rude to anyone who doesn't worship their idol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I think it's different for Rhodey and Vision because Rhodey and Tony are best friends long before they were heroes and there's an equality in their relationship that's not replicable in another relationship and Vision was Wanda's husband. I just don't see it as completely comparable.
    I think it's comparable enough in that these 2 actually don't act like the hero they look up/are in a relationship with is perfect or their actions are always right, because they're not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    He came off as deflecting the blame for it to Kingpin and Kazi so she wouldn't come after him, even though he was the one who actually killed her father, but he seemed to be trying to relate to her as being used as a weapon which...just felt kind of weird.

    And because Maya realized she can't actually beat him, she's probably going to drop her (justified) vendetta. Which just feels kind of weird in a Superhero story.
    It didn't really make sense. It's like none of them learned how their own actions put them in danger in the first place. Plus, it seemed like she was more capable than him when he was first introduced.

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