Wonder Woman Controversial Opinions Part 2

[WonderLight789]

I tend to think of them as... it's like if a body builder fought the heavyweight champion of the world in a boxing ring. I think the bodybuilder might believably have a stronger punch but it really doesn't matter because the other is very goddamn strong and a supremely better fighter. If Clark gets a lucky counter punch or it's a crisis and he's in DC protagonist mode, he may pull off a win but otherwise it's Diana winning every time. I don't think their raw stats have to be 1:1 to be equals. That's an extremely limited look at what each brings to the table.

I think they're equals. They do different stuff and have different strengths and weaknesses, but they have the same worth as heroes and are equal to the tasks presented them. The poster I quoted in particular is notorious for holding that any less than an equal bench press is tantamount to sexism though, since that's the metric they find most important.

Apparently it's because Superman fans are sexist and want Diana simping in a thong.

That's not the defination of matching. That's like when they gave her a sword and shield, making it seem she needed them because her powers on their own aren't good enough. Or like when they gave her a female watered down version of Darkseid to be a new archy villain. Because it would be better(in their minds) than to allow a girl to beat the real one that happens to be a male, connected to the white male straight privileged character, the american way farm boy. Sigh.

[phonogram12]

I like her a ton and I know that's certainly not true of me, so you're already wrong on that front. I do know we differ on what we think of "matching," however, so perhaps that's where you draw the line. But I don't think the implied sexism is a fair thing to throw at Superman fans specifically. There's a lot of crossover between Wonder Woman and Superman fans since a lot of their core appeal has overlap and thus fans tend to like the other if they like one. Not all, mind, but a lot.

I tend to think of them as... it's like if a body builder fought the heavyweight champion of the world in a boxing ring. I think the bodybuilder might believably have a stronger punch but it really doesn't matter because the other is very goddamn strong and a supremely better fighter. If Clark gets a lucky counter punch or it's a crisis and he's in DC protagonist mode, he may pull off a win but otherwise it's Diana winning every time. I don't think their raw stats have to be 1:1 to be equals. That's an extremely limited look at what each brings to the table.

I think they're equals. They do different stuff and have different strengths and weaknesses, but they have the same worth as heroes and are equal to the tasks presented them. The poster I quoted in particular is notorious for holding that any less than an equal bench press is tantamount to sexism though, since that's the metric they find most important.

Apparently it's because Superman fans are sexist and want Diana simping in a thong.

Yep. Exactly. All of this.

[WonderLight789]

I like your explanation of how they match up. I miiiight be a little generous and say she wins 6-4, but Diana's seen so much of Supes powers, techniques, and understands his psyche. All the empathic understanding, warrior training and wisdom of Athena (or just her own) would make Diana an incredibly inconvenient threat to Supes. Her bracelets make a perfect counter to Supes heat vision, her lasso of truth can channel Hestia's flames and deal with his ice breath, she's up there in speed and her reaction time is exquisite (remember when she fought the JL blindfolded? Or Medusa blinded?), and she packs the requisite strength and tools to hurt him and pierce his skin. Plus, she should be written as very smart and taking advantage of knowledge of Supes to get the upper hand. Honestly, now I want an actual good fight between them that does them both justice!

I don't necessarily think Superman fans are sexist, although subconscious effects are definitely possible, but they just want their guy to be number one. At the very top. No one else can compare or shine a light. He was the "first" therefore the "best". And, to their credit, it's how he's been treated within universe for most of the DC's publishing history, so it's not like they pulled this out of nowhere. I guess, WW fans, myself included, are viscerally sensitive to gender politics and the ramifications of the character's treatment and importance within universe, so when these discussions pop up, the sexist alarms go off. Why can't Diana be just as strong? Why shouldn't Diana fly? Why does she always get relatively ignored compared to Batsy, Supes, Flash and Green Lantern? Why is her mythos always getting effed with and why are her Rogue's Gallery, which primarily consists of women, treated as joke? Not that Supes hasn't had editorial mishandling, but we cannot deny he's been handled with much more care than Diana ever has been, seen in carrying multiple monthlies for decades at time while Diana usually just has her eponymous book. That's why Death Metal was refreshing in that Diana was the "main" hero, even if it had nothing at all to do with her mythos, which just highlights how even when DC tries...it can be better.

The skills excuse. Her skills never matter or make any difference in her favor 95% of the time. And 100% against superman. You want an example of skills making a difference? mary marvel trashing her in dceased after 3 months of training. Funny how Diana is always the only one on the receiving end of both sides of the spectrum uh?

[Robanker]

I like your explanation of how they match up. I miiiight be a little generous and say she wins 6-4, but Diana's seen so much of Supes powers, techniques, and understands his psyche. All the empathic understanding, warrior training and wisdom of Athena (or just her own) would make Diana an incredibly inconvenient threat to Supes. Her bracelets make a perfect counter to Supes heat vision, her lasso of truth can channel Hestia's flames and deal with his ice breath, she's up there in speed and her reaction time is exquisite (remember when she fought the JL blindfolded? Or Medusa blinded?), and she packs the requisite strength and tools to hurt him and pierce his skin. Plus, she should be written as very smart and taking advantage of knowledge of Supes to get the upper hand. Honestly, now I want an actual good fight between them that does them both justice!

I don't necessarily think Superman fans are sexist, although subconscious effects are definitely possible, but they just want their guy to be number one. At the very top. No one else can compare or shine a light. He was the "first" therefore the "best". And, to their credit, it's how he's been treated within universe for most of the DC's publishing history, so it's not like they pulled this out of nowhere. I guess, WW fans, myself included, are viscerally sensitive to gender politics and the ramifications of the character's treatment and importance within universe, so when these discussions pop up, the sexist alarms go off. Why can't Diana be just as strong? Why shouldn't Diana fly? Why does she always get relatively ignored compared to Batsy, Supes, Flash and Green Lantern? Why is her mythos always getting effed with and why are her Rogue's Gallery, which primarily consists of women, treated as joke? Not that Supes hasn't had editorial mishandling, but we cannot deny he's been handled with much more care than Diana ever has been, seen in carrying multiple monthlies for decades at time while Diana usually just has her eponymous book. That's why Death Metal was refreshing in that Diana was the "main" hero, even if it had nothing at all to do with her mythos, which just highlights how even when DC tries...it can be better.

I think 6-4 is being generous to Superman. I put Diana at a 7-3 favor. And she wouldn't use kryptonite either. It's unsportsmanlike, for one, and also actively killing someone she considers a close friend.

It's an uphill battle for Clark, or should be, but even 7-3, none of those fights are free. They would need a break after, to be sure. Neither is a chump on their worst day.

As for why Clark needs to be strongest? It's kind of becoming all he has left. Everyone lost their counter weakness (Di being bound, yellow for GL, water deprivation for Arthur, etc) but Clark still has all of his and magic is now sometimes written to be explicitly strong against him rather than the great equalizer in which he's as vulnerable as anyone else.

His status as the first now went to Diana or the JSA. His inspiring the Legion to his son, and now Bruce an Dr. Fate have legacies there instead of only Clark and later GL. Krypto is quickly becoming Kara's pet. Maggie Sawyer got taken to Gotham and they send Lois there every chance they get. Hell, his foes are now considered justice league rogues. He even lost his secret identity when he was one of the last heroes to really bother with one in any meaningful way.

So it's kind of becoming that it's quickly becoming all he has left when he's the cloth all heroes are cut from. It sticks in our craw too, but with respect to Diana you need also consider that she can basically invalidate him the way he does J'onn if the only physical difference is his enhanced senses. Except Superman isn't a Justice League supporting cast member (and face it, J'onn is basically that). He and Diana are among it's premier members. Hell, she should lead the damn thing.

So if she has all his strengths, none of his weaknesses and the main difference is some senses... There's no sense in calling them equal now, is there?

I don't think I'd care as much if Clark's other elements weren't being packaged off piecemeal to other characters but when he's already had so much stripped from him, I do want him to retain what little he has left.

I also don't believe Diana being a 9.5 to his 10 makes her in any way lesser when weighed against her other advantages. They both need to be special.

I'm glad DC is finally learning she needs to be as special as he is, even if they show it in dumb ways (Death Metal being a Batman event that she gets to put the final nail in rather than built from her mythos). It's waaaaay past time Diana got her due.

[Robanker]

The skills excuse. Her skills never matter or make any difference in her favor 95% of the time. And 100% against superman. You want an example of skills making a difference? mary marvel trashing her in dceased after 3 months of training. Funny how Diana is always the only one on the receiving end of both sides of the spectrum uh?

That's because accomplished writer and voice of all things progressive, Tom Taylor, seems to believe that Wonder Woman needs to be put in her place.

[Koriand'r]

Ok, Koriand'r we see you...

Just a little levity to cut thru the tension. The WW mythos can sucessfully have more men (take Siggy for instance) but they have to be a certain kind.

[Robanker]

Just a little levity to cut thru the tension. The WW mythos can sucessfully have more men (take Siggy for instance) but they have to be a certain kind.

Fine as hell and allergic to shirts?

[WonderLight789]

That's because accomplished writer and voice of all things progressive, Tom Taylor, seems to believe that Wonder Woman needs to be put in her place.

All superman, batman and other writers seem to think that way.

[Perseus]

Just a little levity to cut thru the tension. The WW mythos can sucessfully have more men (take Siggy for instance) but they have to be a certain kind.

What was that one character Del Mar talked about a lot for a while? Sargon the Sorcerer? Just bring that guy back and turn him into that floating ghost character from He-man and call it a day.

[Koriand'r]

Fine as hell and allergic to shirts?

Preferably but there are several male side characters that could periodically filter thru the book.

Ed Idelicato
Ferdinand
Hermes
General Darnell
Milan
Trevor Barnes
Steve's Odd Fellows
Lennox
Hunter Prince
Nemesis
etcetera

[Robanker]

Preferably but there are several male side characters that could periodically filter thru the book.

Ed Idelicato
Ferdinand
Hermes
General Darnell
Milan
Trevor Barnes
Steve's Odd Fellows
Lennox
Hunter Prince
Nemesis
etcetera

Don't care for the Odd Fellows. They just felt like trying too hard to catch some of movie Steve's lightning in a bottle... But, frankly, Rucka's Steve feels pretty uninspired so I get needing to pull some of that Pine magic.

[Primal Slayer]

Id love to see Hermes join WW on a couple of missions just for the fun of it and fall in love with a mortal male.

[Shimbo]

Id love to see Hermes join WW on a couple of missions just for the fun of it and fall in love with a mortal male.

Blue chicken Hermes or the generic skimpy toga and signature helmet wearing Hermes? I think the latter appearance would probs be more conducive to your idea, although I can imagine some furries being interested in Chiang Hermes haha.

[Shimbo]

I think 6-4 is being generous to Superman. I put Diana at a 7-3 favor. And she wouldn't use kryptonite either. It's unsportsmanlike, for one, and also actively killing someone she considers a close friend.

It's an uphill battle for Clark, or should be, but even 7-3, none of those fights are free. They would need a break after, to be sure. Neither is a chump on their worst day.

As for why Clark needs to be strongest? It's kind of becoming all he has left. Everyone lost their counter weakness (Di being bound, yellow for GL, water deprivation for Arthur, etc) but Clark still has all of his and magic is now sometimes written to be explicitly strong against him rather than the great equalizer in which he's as vulnerable as anyone else.

His status as the first now went to Diana or the JSA. His inspiring the Legion to his son, and now Bruce an Dr. Fate have legacies there instead of only Clark and later GL. Krypto is quickly becoming Kara's pet. Maggie Sawyer got taken to Gotham and they send Lois there every chance they get. Hell, his foes are now considered justice league rogues. He even lost his secret identity when he was one of the last heroes to really bother with one in any meaningful way.

So it's kind of becoming that it's quickly becoming all he has left when he's the cloth all heroes are cut from. It sticks in our craw too, but with respect to Diana you need also consider that she can basically invalidate him the way he does J'onn if the only physical difference is his enhanced senses. Except Superman isn't a Justice League supporting cast member (and face it, J'onn is basically that). He and Diana are among it's premier members. Hell, she should lead the damn thing.

So if she has all his strengths, none of his weaknesses and the main difference is some senses... There's no sense in calling them equal now, is there?

I don't think I'd care as much if Clark's other elements weren't being packaged off piecemeal to other characters but when he's already had so much stripped from him, I do want him to retain what little he has left.

I also don't believe Diana being a 9.5 to his 10 makes her in any way lesser when weighed against her other advantages. They both need to be special.

I'm glad DC is finally learning she needs to be as special as he is, even if they show it in dumb ways (Death Metal being a Batman event that she gets to put the final nail in rather than built from her mythos). It's waaaaay past time Diana got her due.

I said 6-4 to be generous, but I like 7-3 haha. The main thing I come back to is fighting in the Sol System, or anywhere where he's exposed to sunlight. I agree she wouldn't use kryptonite, and probably not even her bladed weapons (with exception always made with her tiara because it's the most bad ass feminine royalty move there is! Disney princesses all grown up haha). I think it'd be quite clever of Diana to goad him into an environment where sunlight does not reach, perhaps down in the lowest depths of the ocean or in Tartarus or punching him into the astral dimension/collective unconscious and fights him there. I guess it depends on the kind of fight. A practice/training/sports festival type thing should definitely be written differently than a more direct and consequential confrontation ala brain control of one of them or whatever contrived reasons writers find to pit our heroes against each other. We're due for a quality Wondie vs Supes fight!

To your point about Supes only having his strength left, I don't know, Supes is more than his bench press just as Diana is more than skills, tools, and divine strength. I'd argue it's middle of the road and conventional comic book writing fails to take advantage of the truly ridiculously fantastical things both characters are capable of and should be shown doing. That being said, I think Supes lends himself to exploring new powers a little better than Diana whose main thing seems to be a failure to adequately showcase the powers she already has. To your point about Supes villains becoming JL villains, that reinforces that his villains and mythos are taken seriously, whereas Diana's... When was the last time we saw a WW villain challenge the JL? New52 Cheetah's first appearance? I guess Circe in JLD, too. For better or for worse, Superman is still considered the quintessential American superhero. Wonder Woman is the quintessential superHEROINE and I do think her gender and just conceptual makeup has posed a major challenge for writers and editorial alike. Superman is the 1 one hero. Wonder Woman is simply treated, both in verse and out, as the number 1 lady hero. The nuance matters and has potent real world and in universe ramifications, unfortunately for Diana.

[Alpha]

Don't care for the Odd Fellows. They just felt like trying too hard to catch some of movie Steve's lightning in a bottle... But, frankly, Rucka's Steve feels pretty uninspired so I get needing to pull some of that Pine magic.

I think every single take on Steve Trevor in comics has been very uninspired. What take do you like?