World War X

[Huntsman Spider]

Death wasn’t much of an impediment to the X-Men before they became functional immortals, it won’t stop them now.

I’d be more worried about Domino.

Still, it’s bold for an anti-mutant group to take out a bunch of baselines in the process.

Sacrifices for the cause, as far as they're concerned.

[king of hybrids]

Sacrifices for the cause, as far as they're concerned.

True. On the other hand it attracts the attention of those who would otherwise not care one whit about mutant deaths.

Also, considering both the Korvac thing, the various Weapon Plus spin-offs coming to light and the looming AI arc; surely whatever plans Orchis has for the forbears of Novissma is gonna start affecting outside the X-Books

[capandkirby]

For anyone who read yesterday's Immortal Hulk, the chances of the X-Men and the Avengers going to war is now even more of a non-issue as...

a) Orchis is apparently the new AIM. Where a significant bulk of their members came from Shadow Base, the US government funded group put together to dissect the Hulk and make more Hulks. They're a terrorist organization, which is an everyone problem, not just an X-Men problem.



Moreover, I can't imagine that Steve Rogers, who is willing to confront Weapons Plus anytime, anywhere over their shenanigans, as evidenced in the recent Weapons Plus release where he dropped everything to join Wolverine on a quest to get answers and also in the awesome Deadpool arc the Good, the Bad and the Ugly, will just passively sit by when he finds out that Orchis exists. Plus, let the record note that Steve was the only dissenting Avenger to bombing and killing the Hulk to begin with. He wanted no part of that. And as he is right this minute, in his own book, fighting AIM, and is willing to bring down Weapons Plus whenever they pop up, I'd doubt he'd have any issue adding Orchis to his personal dookie list since they're pretty much a more extreme version of the same thing.



b) Tony and T'Challa haven't just passively sat by and watched the world burn, either. Bruce implied that Stark, Richards, Wakanda and yes, Krokoa had been trying to make the world more energy efficient and greener. They've been overruled by government, big business and the biggest enemy to superheroes and X-Men alike, apathy. Which again, is a combined issue.

[capandkirby]

In conclusion... c) Like Civil War and the SHRA the government is a big part of the problem here. They funded Shadow Base in order to make weapons, which most of the Orchis members came from.



They've actively repressed new, greener technologies. In Avengers and Invaders they US government regrouped the Squadron Supreme, whom in a bit of dramatic irony, as we the readers know this but the Squadron Supreme members do not, is under the direct influence of Mephisto, because they don't trust the Avengers ties to Wakanda. Russia also has a team, the Winter Guard. Both of these teams have declared themselves enemies of the Avengers and have threatened to take them out.

The other problem is huge companies like Roxxon, who, as we found out in Hulk is, well, I wont spoil it but it's a doozy, read yesterday's issue of Hulk. Anyway, Hulk is teamed up with Namor. The Avengers are aware of Roxxon's evil as they sided with the Dark Elves during War of the Realms.

It is HIGHLY doubtful the Avengers are going to side with any side that has Roxxon on it. Seriously. Especially Steve and what he's uncovered about Roxxon in Invaders.

If there is any "war" coming, it will be the supers and the X-Men against all of these factors: government, evil corporations like Roxxon, terrorist cells like Orchis, and national apathy to any of this.

[king of hybrids]

While you are correct, there is the issue that A) odds are Weapon Plus and the Enclave’s collaboration with Horton are the root of Novissma that Krakoa is all about avoiding and B) Moira’s admitted to being... economical with what she’s shown Charles and Erik. While the nature of most superheroes as de facto failed prototypes etc and habit of being a tad too independently-minded (Russia blatantly doesn’t trust the Winter Guard not to succumb to conscience, hence Red Widow) means the current generation aren’t a threat, their genes could be a problem in Moira’s eyes

Also Krakoa’s terraforming effect and its recent spread to Otherworld are going to cause problems sooner or later. To say nothing of the fact that sooner or later X-Force or Shaw’s operations are going to backfire.

[capandkirby]

While you are correct, there is the issue that A) odds are Weapon Plus and the Enclave’s collaboration with Horton are the root of Novissma that Krakoa is all about avoiding and B) Moira’s admitted to being... economical with what she’s shown Charles and Erik. While the nature of most superheroes as de facto failed prototypes etc and habit of being a tad too independently-minded (Russia blatantly doesn’t trust the Winter Guard not to succumb to conscience, hence Red Widow) means the current generation aren’t a threat, their genes could be a problem in Moira’s eyes

Also Krakoa’s terraforming effect and its recent spread to Otherworld are going to cause problems sooner or later. To say nothing of the fact that sooner or later X-Force or Shaw’s operations are going to backfire.

If the X-Men go after the superheroes because of their genes, then they would be no better than the people who have gone after the X-Men because of their genes. It would put the X-Men firmly on the side of the wrong should an inciting incident for war be something like them deciding to assassinate Steve because his blood holds the super soldier serum, or going after Hulk because of his gamma radiation infused dna, and that's what starts a war between the two groups. From a sales perspective I doubt the Marvel office would do that. I think the only way a plot like this would work without totally villainizing one side would be to have this cause a civil war within the mutants themselves, with a large portion of them against killing superheroes just because of the potential of what their genes in the wrong hands can do.

[Huntsman Spider]

For anyone who read yesterday's Immortal Hulk, the chances of the X-Men and the Avengers going to war is now even more of a non-issue as...

a) Orchis is apparently the new AIM. Where a significant bulk of their members came from Shadow Base, the US government funded group put together to dissect the Hulk and make more Hulks. They're a terrorist organization, which is an everyone problem, not just an X-Men problem.



Moreover, I can't imagine that Steve Rogers, who is willing to confront Weapons Plus anytime, anywhere over their shenanigans, as evidenced in the recent Weapons Plus release where he dropped everything to join Wolverine on a quest to get answers and also in the awesome Deadpool arc the Good, the Bad and the Ugly, will just passively sit by when he finds out that Orchis exists. Plus, let the record note that Steve was the only dissenting Avenger to bombing and killing the Hulk to begin with. He wanted no part of that. And as he is right this minute, in his own book, fighting AIM, and is willing to bring down Weapons Plus whenever they pop up, I'd doubt he'd have any issue adding Orchis to his personal dookie list since they're pretty much a more extreme version of the same thing.



b) Tony and T'Challa haven't just passively sat by and watched the world burn, either. Bruce implied that Stark, Richards, Wakanda and yes, Krokoa had been trying to make the world more energy efficient and greener. They've been overruled by government, big business and the biggest enemy to superheroes and X-Men alike, apathy. Which again, is a combined issue.

In conclusion... c) Like Civil War and the SHRA the government is a big part of the problem here. They funded Shadow Base in order to make weapons, which most of the Orchis members came from.



They've actively repressed new, greener technologies. In Avengers and Invaders they US government regrouped the Squadron Supreme, whom in a bit of dramatic irony, as we the readers know this but the Squadron Supreme members do not, is under the direct influence of Mephisto, because they don't trust the Avengers ties to Wakanda. Russia also has a team, the Winter Guard. Both of these teams have declared themselves enemies of the Avengers and have threatened to take them out.

The other problem is huge companies like Roxxon, who, as we found out in Hulk is, well, I wont spoil it but it's a doozy, read yesterday's issue of Hulk. Anyway, Hulk is teamed up with Namor. The Avengers are aware of Roxxon's evil as they sided with the Dark Elves during War of the Realms.

It is HIGHLY doubtful the Avengers are going to side with any side that has Roxxon on it. Seriously. Especially Steve and what he's uncovered about Roxxon in Invaders.

If there is any "war" coming, it will be the supers and the X-Men against all of these factors: government, evil corporations like Roxxon, terrorist cells like Orchis, and national apathy to any of this.

Very good points here, and this reminds me a lot of Mark Millar's revelation in Marvel Knights Spider-Man #1-12 about how when superheroes first started to become prominent, corrupt government and corporate forces alike banded together to create supervillains so that the superheroes would be too focused on stopping imminent death and destruction to stave off the long-term damage those same pernicious forces were inflicting upon the world. Obviously, it seems things have come to a head, and the superheroes' failure or inability to tackle or fully resolve the longstanding issues endemic to human society, especially as fomented by corrupt government and corporate entities that profit or otherwise gain from said issues continuing unabated, has thus resulted in a world on the brink of total collapse. The question now --- as maybe it is in real life --- is, "Can such a world still be saved, and would it deserve to be?" If not, then what will rise from its ashes, and who will be there to exploit the situation for their own benefit even as everything comes crashing down?

[Ursalink]

I don't know when this "World War X" was announced, but I believe there was already something similar back in Ultimate Comics.

Either way, if something like this happens, which apparently WILL happen without a doubt, the big question is... Who will make the first attack? Because, as far as I see, that will definitely declare the winner and the loser side.

+ If Mutants make the first move, as they will probably will considering their current arrogance and God's complex, then they will doom themselves. They will lose all after the war, and Mutants will be once again an endangered species.
+ If humanity makes the first move, then it will be lot of destruction everywhere. Mutants will lose a lot of things, but they will manage to keep part of Krakoa; and surely, the whole thing with Moira will be discovered. The humans responsable of the attack will be punished, but their "mission" will be taken by others to finish Mutants once and for all.

Any option will definitely reveal the "truth" hidden by Moira about "Mutants always lose, Humans always win", which will definitely destroy any morality of the X-Men. My guess?, they will scatter through the Earth individually to live their own lives, far from any other mutant, as their mission is pointless.

[BroHomo]

Also Krakoa’s terraforming effect and its recent spread to Otherworld are going to cause problems sooner or later. To say nothing of the fact that sooner or later X-Force or Shaw’s operations are going to backfire.

What X-Force operations??

[Londo Bellian]

Bribe, blackmail, assassinate with impunity due to blanket exception from Law 2. Didn't the writer say that in interview? Those ops.

[BroHomo]

Bribe, blackmail, assassinate with impunity due to blanket exception from Law 2. Didn't the writer say that in interview? Those ops.

But those are moves against the enemy of Krakoa i figured you meant some evil offensive gesture they're doing

[numberthirty]

For anyone who read yesterday's Immortal Hulk, the chances of the X-Men and the Avengers going to war is now even more of a non-issue as...

a) Orchis is apparently the new AIM. Where a significant bulk of their members came from Shadow Base, the US government funded group put together to dissect the Hulk and make more Hulks. They're a terrorist organization, which is an everyone problem, not just an X-Men problem.



..........

While I see where you are coming from, it's not really playing out along those lines in the "X" titles.

That said, the thread title barely cracks "Rumor Someone Dreamed Up..."

[capandkirby]

While I see where you are coming from, it's not really playing out along those lines in the "X" titles.

That said, the thread title barely cracks "Rumor Someone Dreamed Up..."

I haven't been reading the X-books so I take your word on that. But I do think it's potent to Marvel leading to that Marvel-wide something with Ewing at the helm of it. I mean, they've stated as such. And several of the books are becoming more and more interconnected, so I don't think the Orchis mention in Hulk, nor it's ties with Shadow Base, is casual. I'll explain:

The interconnected parts:

Cap is on the run, currently, after having been falsely framed for Thaddeus Ross' murder. Ross was the original person who was head of the Shadow Base, and was given a billion dollar budget to dissect the Hulk and make more Hulks, ostensibly by the government. It was stated in Immortal Hulk that the Avengers didn't want to turn the Hulk's body over to Ross, at all, but their hands were tied because of political pressure.

In Cap's book he is fighting a group called the Power Elite who are composed of the Lukins (with Red Skull), the Chadwicks, a terrorist group of white nationalists called the Watchdogs, AIM, Wilson Fisk, as the mayor of New York, and a new Scourge of the Underworld, whoever he/she may be. Also, Selene is a part of this group.

In this week's Immortal Hulk it was mentioned that Ross, unlike Hulk and Rick Jones, is perma dead. Another interesting part here is that the Power Elite are controlling public perception of regular folks through the Marvel equivalent of Fox News. And Ewing also wrote in yesterday's Hulk about how podcasts are used to sway public perception towards who's an enemy of the people and who is not. So again, shady government. Humanity being apathetic. The rich, like the Lukins, the Chadwicks and Fisk controlling the public and running things behind the scenes.

In Avengers, Invaders, the War of the Realms event and now Hulk, too, Roxxon, an evil corporation whose CEO is Dario Agger, the Minotaur has been a major presence. Roxxon sided with the Dark Elves during WotR. They killed Atlanteans rather ruthlessly in Avengers. They stole Namor's bomb, which turns humans into Atlanteans, in Invaders. They been hinted to have their hands in politics as well, owning several politicians. Well, not so much hinted as blatantly stated in both Avengers and Invaders. I asked Zdarsky about the connection between Avengers and Invaders re:Roxxon, he said it was absolutely deliberate. And now, in Hulk, Roxxon has become a target of Bruce Banner/Hulk and Namor, who have teamed up specifically to take them down. A bunch of us think that the real reason Namor turned Xavier down (other than the fact that Xavier and Namor have a personal beef, which was addressed in Invaders) is because Namor has his own war to rage on certain groups within humanity, and he and Hulk (Defenders!) are committed to doing it their way.

Before Ross was killed, he and Steve had an altercation in Avengers (which undoubtedly made it easier to frame Steve for his murder). It was over the fact that the Avengers voted T'Challa as chair and stated that they do not belong to any one government, thus them moving to the arctic and living in the hollowed out shell of a Celestial. Ross expressed concern that the Avengers now had firmer ties to Wakanda than the US. Steve told him to @#$% off in not so many words. Because of this, and because Namor cut the oceans off from humanity (for which no one can blame him, really), the US and Russia built their own superhero teams, both of which are eager to go after (declare war on) both the Avengers and Atlantis. All of this was orchestrated by Mephisto, who has a giant chessboard with all of these individual players on it, including a little Star Brand piece, and a little Kree Supreme Intelligence piece.

You also have that Weapon Plus solo featuring a Wolverine and Cap team-up that happened a few months back with the promise of more being involved with that story.

Yesterday's Immortal Hulk did a lot to tie this all together. The seeds are there. And like I said, I don't think Ewing name dropping Orchis, particularly in its connection to a government funded program meant to recreate the Hulk, is a coincidence. The overall reaching theme is government corruption, an Earth on the brink of collapse because of environmental concerns, the rich controlling things to their profit and their benefit, evil corporations literally ruled by devils, and humanity, as they did in Secret Empire, either not caring, or even embracing things as they are, though they are largely being manipulated into doing so or just haven't cared enough to fight it. Hell, Dario Agger said it outright in yesterdays Hulk. Humanity doesn't see it because it's easier not to.



Anyway, I believe that yes, war is coming, but I don't think it will be Avengers vs. X-Men, I believe that it will either be an Earth-is-doomed-due-to-the-greed-of-man scenario, and the Avengers and X-Men put aside their differences to stave that off, or government/evil corporations/Mephisto/etc. do everything they can to take out both groups, and supes and X-Men have to fight for their survival against them.

[capandkirby]

Very good points here, and this reminds me a lot of Mark Millar's revelation in Marvel Knights Spider-Man #1-12 about how when superheroes first started to become prominent, corrupt government and corporate forces alike banded together to create supervillains so that the superheroes would be too focused on stopping imminent death and destruction to stave off the long-term damage those same pernicious forces were inflicting upon the world. Obviously, it seems things have come to a head, and the superheroes' failure or inability to tackle or fully resolve the longstanding issues endemic to human society, especially as fomented by corrupt government and corporate entities that profit or otherwise gain from said issues continuing unabated, has thus resulted in a world on the brink of total collapse. The question now --- as maybe it is in real life --- is, "Can such a world still be saved, and would it deserve to be?" If not, then what will rise from its ashes, and who will be there to exploit the situation for their own benefit even as everything comes crashing down?

In my opinion? I think you just hit the nail on the head on what the theme of the next major Marvel-wide event is going to be.

[Huntsman Spider]

I haven't been reading the X-books so I take your word on that. But I do think it's potent to Marvel leading to that Marvel-wide something with Ewing at the helm of it. I mean, they've stated as such. And several of the books are becoming more and more interconnected, so I don't think the Orchis mention in Hulk, nor it's ties with Shadow Base, is casual. I'll explain:

The interconnected parts:

Cap is on the run, currently, after having been falsely framed for Thaddeus Ross' murder. Ross was the original person who was head of the Shadow Base, and was given a billion dollar budget to dissect the Hulk and make more Hulks, ostensibly by the government. It was stated in Immortal Hulk that the Avengers didn't want to turn the Hulk's body over to Ross, at all, but their hands were tied because of political pressure.

In Cap's book he is fighting a group called the Power Elite who are composed of the Lukins (with Red Skull), the Chadwicks, a terrorist group of white nationalists called the Watchdogs, AIM, Wilson Fisk, as the mayor of New York, and a new Scourge of the Underworld, whoever he/she may be. Also, Selene is a part of this group.

In this week's Immortal Hulk it was mentioned that Ross, unlike Hulk and Rick Jones, is perma dead. Another interesting part here is that the Power Elite are controlling public perception of regular folks through the Marvel equivalent of Fox News. And Ewing also wrote in yesterday's Hulk about how podcasts are used to sway public perception towards who's an enemy of the people and who is not. So again, shady government. Humanity being apathetic. The rich, like the Lukins, the Chadwicks and Fisk controlling the public and running things behind the scenes.

In Avengers, Invaders, the War of the Realms event and now Hulk, too, Roxxon, an evil corporation whose CEO is Dario Agger, the Minotaur has been a major presence. Roxxon sided with the Dark Elves during WotR. They killed Atlanteans rather ruthlessly in Avengers. They stole Namor's bomb, which turns humans into Atlanteans, in Invaders. They been hinted to have their hands in politics as well, owning several politicians. Well, not so much hinted as blatantly stated in both Avengers and Invaders. I asked Zdarsky about the connection between Avengers and Invaders re:Roxxon, he said it was absolutely deliberate. And now, in Hulk, Roxxon has become a target of Bruce Banner/Hulk and Namor, who have teamed up specifically to take them down. A bunch of us think that the real reason Namor turned Xavier down (other than the fact that Xavier and Namor have a personal beef, which was addressed in Invaders) is because Namor has his own war to rage on certain groups within humanity, and he and Hulk (Defenders!) are committed to doing it their way.

Before Ross was killed, he and Steve had an altercation in Avengers (which undoubtedly made it easier to frame Steve for his murder). It was over the fact that the Avengers voted T'Challa as chair and stated that they do not belong to any one government, thus them moving to the arctic and living in the hollowed out shell of a Celestial. Ross expressed concern that the Avengers now had firmer ties to Wakanda than the US. Steve told him to @#$% off in not so many words. Because of this, and because Namor cut the oceans off from humanity (for which no one can blame him, really), the US and Russia built their own superhero teams, both of which are eager to go after (declare war on) both the Avengers and Atlantis. All of this was orchestrated by Mephisto, who has a giant chessboard with all of these individual players on it, including a little Star Brand piece, and a little Kree Supreme Intelligence piece.

You also have that Weapon Plus solo featuring a Wolverine and Cap team-up that happened a few months back with the promise of more being involved with that story.

Yesterday's Immortal Hulk did a lot to tie this all together. The seeds are there. And like I said, I don't think Ewing name dropping Orchis, particularly in its connection to a government funded program meant to recreate the Hulk, is a coincidence. The overall reaching theme is government corruption, an Earth on the brink of collapse because of environmental concerns, the rich controlling things to their profit and their benefit, evil corporations literally ruled by devils, and humanity, as they did in Secret Empire, either not caring, or even embracing things as they are, though they are largely being manipulated into doing so or just haven't cared enough to fight it. Hell, Dario Agger said it outright in yesterdays Hulk. Humanity doesn't see it because it's easier not to.



Anyway, I believe that yes, war is coming, but I don't think it will be Avengers vs. X-Men, I believe that it will either be an Earth-is-doomed-due-to-the-greed-of-man scenario, and the Avengers and X-Men put aside their differences to stave that off, or government/evil corporations/Mephisto/etc. do everything they can to take out both groups, and supes and X-Men have to fight for their survival against them.

In my opinion? I think you just hit the nail on the head on what the theme of the next major Marvel-wide event is going to be.

Thanks, and once again, you raise some very good points about the state of things and how untenable it's become in the Marvel Universe, which also reflects more than a bit of the reality of our daily lives, I'm sorry to say.