Who is the superior telepath: Emma or Non-PF Jean Grey

[rutog98]

So, I am in a debate with a Jean fan about who is the superior telepath between Emma Frost and Jean Grey minus the Phoenix Force. I have been backing the White Queen, of course. I've decided to open up the thread here. Here are the rules: No feats accomplished by the Phoenix Force, Cerebro (or any other machine boosting their natural psi-powers) and no feats when the psi of other telepaths are added to your own. To kick it off, I will post the Jean fan's posts followed by my rebuttles:

For starters, he's trying to use Morrison's run for Jean Grey feats. I argued that those feats are null and void since Jean had the PF. He's disagreeing and saying that she didn't have the PF and did all of those feats with her own natural power.

1) You're wrong, Jean showed the psychic fire, but she did not have the strength Fenix, it's a fact, and she proved to be much better than Emma.

In ESONG Emma was possessed by Phoeix and Jean was not, and Jean managed to humiliate her, AGAIN.

Jean is a telepath superior to Emma, ​​Rachel too, if Rachel loses to lower telepaths like Emma (and even more inferior Selene) she is inexperienced with telepathy, but Emma herself accepted that Rachel is much more powerful than her, and Rachel it is way below Jean.

In power telepaths: Xavier> CNova> Jean = Exodus> Sinister> Rachel> Kid Omega >> Emma> Psylocke >>>>> Monet (M) = Selene, who has a very limited telepathy, and many times unusable.



2) That she was resistant to the touch of Rogue does not make Selne by chance more powerful than Anna, only resistant (and that was in the past), but in Rogue canon it is known is more dangerous and contains more energy, As you well know in UX184 Rogue was only surprised because Selene was taking her vital energy, but Rogue did not come out injured or hurt or KO in fact Rogue had the strength to break walls and rescue Rachel and Kurt, and the other circus tricks of Selene are useless against Rogue or any super strong and you know, in fact she always flees, and was very lucky that Rogue did not split her in two with her super strength.

Rogue was a girl, and she was inexperienced with her powers, besides that they were in their immature form, instead Selene is an old woman who must feed herself with energy to basically not die, and the powers of Selene have not increased on the contrary Once she looks weaker and weaker, in her most recent birth she has been humiliated and defeated by everyone, by Cable (depowered) by Gideon, in the end whenever a fight ends up being humiliated, and she would be dead again if it were not for the Blik to save her and get her out of there.

In that contact of UX184 Rogue was surprised, but in that contact that Selene was going to win? I doubt it, because Claremont showed that in that Rogue contact he was also absorbing Selne's vital energy and power template, as seen in the Genosha Saga when Rogue was shut up in his mind, one of the psyches and templates of Rogue had in his mind, in effect was SELENE, so Rogue also absorbed it, Xtreme X-Men also saw that Rogue had the power template of Selene.

If this encounter was not very traumatic for either of the two, it is because of the similar nature of that capacity

And this was with the powers of Rogue in his immature state, and already in canon he had done things more impressive than Selene and his absorption was more powerful and with fewer limits. Rogue can do the same as Selene and much much more, the Rogue absorption contains many associated powers, instead Selene only draws life force, and is not even as powerful as Rogue, since it is known that Rogue can house the heroes and more powerful villains and their energies, and can absorb 8 billion entities, and this is not their limit, instead Selene, if there is someone very powerful can not drain it.


to finish Selne is afraid of him and he can not absorb characters like Thor or Hulk, in fact, almost all the mutants have been able to withstand or get rid of their vital force drainage, instead of Rogue very few are resistant

And nowadays, the absorption capacity of Rogue has increased enormously, at least when she is in control, Selene is not compared, if today they touch each other, the most probable thing is that Selene comes out crying, or is in a coma, as it happened to Empalte when faced with Rogue, another Emplate absorbs vital force more powerful than selene, nowadays people who were resistant to the touch of Rogue are no longer because their powers have increased, example of this is Wonderman the Childrensofthevault, LEGION . people in astral form among others.



3) With Rachel, the same, Selene only defeated her when Rachel was with her low defense, and she is a very inexperienced telepat, but Rachel has defeated Selene many times, in fact sometimes Rachel had to be stopped, so that will kill Selene,

Selene just seems to have a sick obsession with Rachel, nothing more.

Selene is only a medium mutant, which is more or less complemented with witchcraft, but has not done anything really impressive or powerful, the best merit of Selene is to manipulate and run away of course, she always ends up fleeing in terror, or defeated.

[rutog98]

My rebuttle:

1) Jean very much did have the Phoenix Force during Morrison's run, hence in New X-Men #139, when she confronted Emma about Scott's psychic affair, she said, now its just "you, me, and the Phoenix!" In other words there were three entities in the room.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/6Rmi1UMjPPu...b1hyonPR=s1600

Okay, so you're wrong. Jean was possessed by the PF.

2) Phoenix Endsong doesn't count because when Emma had just a fraction of the PF, she could not contain it since she was not a suitable host for the PF. However, when AvX came along, it changed things because Emma, along with everybody else, could now serve as host to the PF and she ended up possessing half of it for part of that story arc without any problems whatsoever. Also, Jean was connected to the PF in the White Hot Room in Endsong, hence she told the PF, "You are me." The PF and Jean are clearly two different characters (one being a mutant and the other being a cosmic abstract being), but they were bonded together in Jean's death since she was, again, in the White Hot Room.

3) Jean is a joke compared to Exodus as has been shown every single time they have crossed each other's path when he chose to fight. He has humiliated her without exerting any effort whatsoever. Emma, on the other hand, was able to stalemate Exodus in a psychic duel.

4) Selene can devour the spirit realm if she absorbs enough human life force to boost her powers. That's much more powerful than some 8 billion humans. The spirit realm would be something akin to the Astral Plane, I would think. Heck, it may even be the Astral Plane. Selene>>>Rogue.

5) Selene was killing Rogue in Uncanny #184. Xavier had to intervene and save Rogue's life by psychically attacking Selene's mind to drive her away from Rogue. Why don't you post the scan of that for everyone to see? Rogue didn't absorb squat from Selene. She specifically said that she should be absorbing Selene, but instead the reverse was happening as Selene was draining her life.

6) Where did you get that Selene could not drain the life force of people like Hulk or Thor? Have you ever seen her try? I haven't. Not only that, but Enchantress, a fellow Asgardian to Thor, bowed before Selene. There is no doubt in my mind that Selene could feast on the life force of Thor. You do realize, don't know, that Selene is also known as the "Demon Huntress", right? In other words, she can feed on the life force of mystical creatures like demons, hence the "huntress" thing.

7) Show me Emplate absorbing enough life force and transcending like Selene did on Necrosha.

8) In that scan where "Selene" had the tentacles, that wasn't actually Selene, but Amara. Selene had cast a spell on Amara to switch their physical appearances and the spell tricked Kulan Gath. He captured the wrong "Selene". So, once more, insert quarter and try again.

9) Regarding Selene's telepathy, her showings are inconsistent. While never in the category with Emma, in some stories the Black Queen is shown to be quite a powerful psi. We've seen her telepathically cut people off from their powers, we know that she can throw mind blasts, she can mind control, etc. She has the full range of telepathic abilities.

[rutog98]

Him again:

1) It is an ambiguous case, but Jean seemed to have a mental disorder during Morrison's career, if the P.F were with her in the first place she would not have died, so no, she did not have the P.F.

2) The horrible AvX does not interest me the question is Jean can dominate the PF and humiliate Emma even as Phoenix host, good try but no.

3) In telepathy Exodus and Jean are very even, Emma is inferior to both, in fact Emma is inferior to Rachel, lives with it.

Emma is only well trained, but she is not a telepath of the strong ams, at least they have several before her, even Rachel, Jean 24x7 would win Emma, ​​in fact Emma was in a coma once for Jean, well she already several times He has stayed at Coma.

Emma is useless to scan minds of powerful characters with psychic powers such as Rachel or Legion, in both cases she had to call Rogue to get their minds popped. Because Emma was a complete failure, in something that is supposed to be her specialty.

Jean affects the mind of Hulk, something that neither Xavier, and much less Emma can do.

Jean >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Emma

And now with his return we can have more material of this.

4) Selene had the theory that she could do that, but like most of her plans, she fails, I doubt that she could contain that power, when her draining of life the mutants have been able to bear it or let go of it.

Rogue instead absorbs 8 billion entities, and the power of all the avengers and other heroes of the planet, stopping along with Sentry to a Celestial.

Actually Selene has not even absorbed a million souls, so let's not jump to billions lol.

In fact, Rogue >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Selene.

5) Hajajajaja Selene was not killing anyone, Rogue was not even KO the only unconscious were Kurt and Rachel, Rogue was just surprised because nothing was happening and Selene was draining her, but Selene was lucky that Rogue did not hit her, because if not bye.

And as I told you how you do not know anything about the character, in that encounter, Rogue also absorbed it, because in genosha it was seen that Rogue copied Selene's psyche and power template, and again this was seen in Xmen xtreme.

And the selene circus tricks like animating objects and their low pyroquienesis are not against super strong, selene has several abilities but they are all of medium to low level, only the draining of vital force is good, and in that there are better and more complete, such as Rogue or Emplate.

You know well that Selene does not have any high feat of power, much less to compete with Rogue.

6) Selene can not with Thor and much less with Hulk do not make illusions, Selene always chooses to flee, if she meets those she simply faints. Selene has tried to drain the Hulk and failed, the same would happen with Thor.

7) Emplate has enough feats of power, many more than Selene, in Necrosha Selene failure and it did not look so powerful, emplate drainage if it is powerful, at least the mutants can not get rid of it, instead with Selene they are quite resistant to this.

8) My mistake look for it fast, but Selene has terror of Kula Gath.

9) Selene is one of the poorest and weak telepaths should not even be taken into account as one, is very limited, something similar as with Monet in the telepathic field, but of course Monet is stronger physically if they fight for sure Selene ends up defeated she can not with super strong.

Again and to finish the most recent appearance Selene showed that it is a total failure as an enemy and nothing powerful.

1) His animation of inanimate objects, proved to be once again a failure, Cable depowered LOngshot and Shatterstar managed to get loose and complicate Selene.

2) Longshot could easily cut his drain and push Selene face to face as if nothing, to get him away from him.

3) cable the humilia with a simple plasma weapon and a shot I left it wrong and Selene was terrified, I left all bloodied and begging for mercy, I know that Cable was not there to kill her, but to find out who had killed (again ) to Candra.

4) Gideon gave Selene the beating of his life, and she was about to die, that if it was not because he told Blink to take them out of there Selene would already be dead dead.

Then she rushes to plead with the Cable team to help Gideon kill something that she fails terribly.

And you consider it a mutant of the most powerful ??? please, it does not even reach the level of Polaris or Dust.

In Change Rogue is tired of saving the planet to stop a celestial, and with her touch defeat the strongest beings of the unvierso marvel, among them Hulks Gods and beings of cosmic level, Selene ??? to if it is defeated by Gideon, and before by Cable depowered and Longshot XD.


I still remember that they had her in a dungeon in HFC lol, or as Trevor Ftsroy tortured her, TF that someone from Bishop's level could finish him without using his powers lol.

Open a thread to talk about the level of Selene and its failures, or rather as it runs away. this is the thread of appreciation of Storm, if you want to go to Selene, to continue discussing, but as it is so unimportant, and has nothing impenetrating in its history I doubt you have one.

[rutog98]

My rebuttle to that post:

I will once more take up the battle for Emma Frost. You don't know the character as well as you think you do. For those of you who are curious about just how powerful and great a telepath the White Queen is, enjoy!

1) When Phoenix Force Jean Grey died at the end of Morrison's run, she went into the White Hot Room with all of the past Phoenix Force hosts to do Phoenix work. In Endsong, she was still in the grave, hence she was still in the White Hot Room and connected to the Phoenix Force. Ergo, when she humiliated Emma, Jean was still connected to the White Hot Room, thus she was still bonded to the PF. Hence, when she pulled that small fraction of the PF out of Emma, she told it, "I am you." She said that because, again, she was still in the WHR and bonded to the PF. This doesn't count as a non-PF Jean feat. Also, we saw in "No More Humans" that the PF is reluctant to hurt Jean Grey because it likes her.

2) Look, if Jean Grey is being boosted by the Phoenix Force, she can beat Emma (and Exodus). Without the PF, she loses badly to both characters.

3) Jean never put Emma in a coma. What are you talking about? I knew this debate would come down to Jean wielding the PF. It always does come down to people trying to argue Phoenix feats for regular Jean to try and prop her up when she's pitted against superior telepaths like Emma.

4) Non-PF Jean Grey, even aided by a weakened Xavier, entered Magneto's mind to assault him psychically (they were only able to enter his mind after Gambit distracted Magneto with a card to the face). While there, Magneto was attacking himself and Jean, being so pathetic of a telepath, thought Magneto was attacking them. Xavier had to explain to Jean that Magneto was not fighting them, but himself:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/7oC1VROEpvP...sEfdnhBI=s1600

Emma Frost, on the other hand, can do stuff like this without Xavier:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/fye4QLd8J5b...Takluw0c=s1600
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/WhUkIFaJL8h...Ji4PscQd=s1600

Where has Jean every done massive TP surgery on a major scale?

Instead, Jean gets bested by Wolverine's willpower:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-FIdK1iKDgQ...c42/RCO020.jpg

So, we see that Jean Grey can't prevail against Wolverine's willpower, nor can she prevail against Magneto's willpower without Xavier's aid even when Magneto is being distracted by several other X-Men attacking him physically. Xavier had to not only had his psi to Jean in the Magneto instance, but he had to guide her throughout their entire mental assault on him.

Now, lets talk about mindblasts:

Emma was able to hold her own for a little while against the Dark Phoenix in psi-combat.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/aQ99128cVqb...chTPY0Z6=s1600

After much of her power had been depleted by fighting Dark Phoenix, Emma focused the remaining portion of her power into a single psi-bolt and destroys a building (keep in mind this is not Emma's full power as, again, much of her power was already gone at this point)

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/7oq3-DnYb2L...R91_uSNE=s1600

In Uncanny X-Men #383, Jean Grey was attacked and captured by a chair with metal arms. She commented on how if she had her TK, she could have defeated it easily, but since all she had was her TP (with Betsy's TP added to her own), she was completely defenseless against that chair. By the way, the Dark Phoenix instance was not the only time Emma's TP was strong enough to harm things in the physical realm. In Generation X #18, Emma takes down Generation X with mental manipulations. When Monet challenges her to fight her without mind games, but physically, Emma channels all of the ambient psionic energy in the atmosphere into a psionic lightning bolt and knocks Monet flat out.


http://2.bp.blogspot.com/Q_M1wH1B5_u...AJu0ctxg=s1600
http://actionagogo.com/wp-content/up...15/02/genx.jpg

In Uncanny X-Men #317, during the Phalanx Covenant, A Phalanx, wearing the guise of Storm, has its mind literally torn apart by a psi-blast from Emma:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/1dyVMonM0n-...uOrqFIqe=s1600

Jean can't toss mindblasts this strong.

In Generation X #50, Emma sees X-Man on television. As she sits in her chair Massachusetts , she just casually makes contact with him as he is flying over Ireland. This is a mind she had never contacted before, either, so its a brand new brain wave pattern she effortlessly finds over a great distance. Keep in mind this is when X-Man no longer had his TP, so it would have been like scanning for any other non-psi:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/OaRBRGpEnEo...NZL8SD-h=s1600
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/85Bvy4YFnKX...UaC5SXTF=s1600

Emma was also able to create a psi-beacon in Dark Beast's mind:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/oZrQKtQWLz1...ATCRdueM=s1600

Here, Emma is literally punching through dozens of Dark Beast's psi-blockers with her psychic powers as if they were nothing:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/DFh-Fz0gVo9...oCqzZT6u=s1600

In another story, Emma's sister, Adrienne Frost, uses psi-tech to trap Generation X in a mental reality and Emma is trapped in between mental states (or something). Anywho, Emma gets mad, breaks free, uses her psychic powers to take control of that entire mental reality and she literally shatters it with her mental abilities:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/Q88dOAtI3-q...6-8_CPQg=s1600
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/5RPDy2sq8ob...zDRUe6l8=s1600
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/2hi8rC74I1T...WF1ytEQt=s1600

Jean Grey is nothing compared to Emma without the Phoenix Force boosting her up.

@Omegarogue:

I will tackle Selene in my next post.

On, and lets not forget when Emma's mind attack against an adversary was so strong, the mere psionic backlash of Emma's powers proved too strong for Jean's psychic shields to block out:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/R6zOIHczJkr...0vKErUuB=s1600

[butterflykyss]

should have made a poll.

[Victorian_Soul]

Jean is the superior telepath, even Emma talks about how she's the most gifted psychic she knew hut would never say it to her face.

[Dementia5]

If you’re gonna start this you should at least ring a bell or something.

[rutog98]

Oh, and while Emma was literally punching through DOZENS of Dark Beast's psi-blocking tech, Jean's TP combined with Betsy's TP was literally useless in this government compound:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/GbR4wFTDT5o...UpiTwCpW=s1600

Now, you know Dark Beast is going to have psi-blocking tech much better than the Russian government. So, the blockers Emma was breaking down would have been stronger.

Without the PF boosting her up, Jean is nothing compared to Emma.

[rutog98]

If you’re gonna start this you should at least ring a bell or something.

Well, it started over in the "Storm" thread and ended up going on longer than I anticipated, so I elected to just create a thread for it.

[rutog98]

Jean is the superior telepath, even Emma talks about how she's the most gifted psychic she knew hut would never say it to her face.

That statement is PIS. Jean Grey is slow as a turtle. Emma got command over her psi-powers quickly while it took Jean YEARS of study with Xavier to learn even the basics.

More stuff from the Morrison run to show that Jean did have the PF, thus all of those feats are nullified:


Not only do you have that scan I posted where Jean said, "Now its just you, me, and the Phoenix," but then you also have instances like this:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/6oOUNQRpC9H...irlONSe7=s1600

and this:

(They are headed for the sun in these scans:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/qjW75mpHX3U...DItmrPZK=s1600
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/jutJiG0kVwO...isPTuPyI=s1600
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/q-DiXl-Pdtn...T1c04suw=s1600
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/Pb0ygj5HKpJ...04UF9v4R=s1600

Followed by this:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/JDW_hkGiUhj...Pqyrehvv=s1600
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/9b6I-fi6sSh...y98Rs0_T=s1600

This all happened during the Morrison run and some people are trying to say that Jean did not have the PF during his stint. Give me a break!

[Omegarogue]

rutog98:


Come on man, Jean is superior to Emma everyone knows, except the Emma fans.

For me, making a random list of telepaths that come to mind would put them like that.

Xavier >>>> CNova> SKing >>> Mr X> Jean Gray = Exodus> X-Man > Sinister> Kid Omega > Rachel >> Emma = MissSnister> 3 little Emmas> Psylocke> Danny Moostar (empowered> karma> NoGirl> Blindfold> Selne = M> Artie

[Vegeta]

Hard to say, in terms of feats Jean almost always has the Phoenix slowly building inside her. I'd guess Jean has more raw untapped potential while Emma has the greater advantage in trained abilities. Heck, recently she was shown to be able to project a fake but entirely convincing Cyclops illusion to the entire world, that even fooled Magik and the Inhuman Royals.

[Star_Jammer]

I'm sensing some salt.

[phoenixzero23]

Jean has the edge but both are top telepaths.

[Omegarogue]

Jean is the superior telepath, even Emma talks about how she's the most gifted psychic she knew hut would never say it to her face.

That's right, Jean is infinitely superior.

Do not forget that Emma clearly said that Rachel is more powerful than Emma in Telaptia, and Rachel is very inferior to her mother.