What To Do With Donna Troy

[Ascended]

So sadly it's somewhat unsurprising that today's writers cannot figure out a way around this, even though fans have the obvious perspectives.

I think there's gotta be some business related reason for this. Most pro's in comics start off as fans. They come at these IP's from a similar direction as we do, they want the same kind of things, they just have to deal with certain corporate realities we don't.

Same goes for a lot of the editors and managers. They were fans first, and that's why they're in the positions they are now. I mean, not everyone, but a lot of them. You typically dont end up in the comic book industry unless you want to be here, yknow? Not much reason beyond sheer love of the medium to throw your lot in with a dying industry who's customers hate everything and everyone.

Yet so many decisions are so painfully short sighted, so detrimental...Donna's the most obvious example here but there's countless others...and when we can see it, certainly DC can see it too. So what the f--k is happening? Some of the choices are clearly forced by business logic and theory. A lot of DC's choices I might not like personally, but I can at least see why it's good business, or why it would look like good business. But a lot of the time, I'm left scratching my head and digging through four years of education trying to figure out the reasoning. And most of the time I come up empty handed.

So there's gotta be some kind of business theory unique to publishing that explains some of these apparently stupid ass decisions......or a lot of the people calling the shots (whether from WB, DC's management, or editorial, we'll never know for sure) shouldn't have the jobs they do.

[Fuzzy Mittens]

I think there's gotta be some business related reason for this. Most pro's in comics start off as fans. They come at these IP's from a similar direction as we do, they want the same kind of things, they just have to deal with certain corporate realities we don't.

Same goes for a lot of the editors and managers. They were fans first, and that's why they're in the positions they are now. I mean, not everyone, but a lot of them. You typically dont end up in the comic book industry unless you want to be here, yknow? Not much reason beyond sheer love of the medium to throw your lot in with a dying industry who's customers hate everything and everyone.

Yet so many decisions are so painfully short sighted, so detrimental...Donna's the most obvious example here but there's countless others...and when we can see it, certainly DC can see it too. So what the f--k is happening? Some of the choices are clearly forced by business logic and theory. A lot of DC's choices I might not like personally, but I can at least see why it's good business, or why it would look like good business. But a lot of the time, I'm left scratching my head and digging through four years of education trying to figure out the reasoning. And most of the time I come up empty handed.

So there's gotta be some kind of business theory unique to publishing that explains some of these apparently stupid ass decisions......or a lot of the people calling the shots (whether from WB, DC's management, or editorial, we'll never know for sure) shouldn't have the jobs they do.

The thing to keep in mind is that the ones doing these actual stories are the writers who are not necesarily the ones who pushed for the book they were writing to be published.

To use an example, Constantine/Hellblazer was a big name Vertigo book back in the 90s and its trades sold pretty well. However its series came and went.
Editors for DC were really big fans of the book and so when new 52 came along the book was added to the roster. Despite the fact that the book never even hit 30,000 in sales and would soon sink to below 20,000 with the book even dipping below 10,000 in sales, DC kept publishing it and pushing writers on it. Never letting the book be cancelled for seven years simply because someone in a position to make business decisions was convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt that this character was really good and deserved a solo title despite the fact that the book really was not something which was appealing to readers.

And its not just a problem of the fan being an editor who wants to see more of something with no understanding of what made their favorite good and simply demands writers write good stories. It can also be an issue where the writer is a huge fan but doesn't quite grasp what peoples draw was. The most recent Birds of Prey run had a creative team who talked heavily about their love of the original. But their run used ideas which simply did not translate well for someone going from being a fan of a work to being a creator influencing it.

To make a book work you need an editor willing to push for its existence, a creative team who has a good handle on how to make it good. And a receptive audience who are interested in whats being sold.

This does happen on occasion and you can get really good books out of it. For example Deathstroke was pushed for seven years as a solo and was a piece of crud until they got Priest on the book and it went from selling 12,000 a month to 30,000.
Or examples where you get someone like Geoff Johns on Titans and he manages to make a success out of it.

So with that in mind with Titans, the series has a number of issues in that alot of people at DC remember it as being a big book when they were kids and insist that it can work. They push talents on the book but this becomes a struggle due to alot of the issues people have mentioned above. The book continues on regardless of sales more for the sake of nostalgia than for any grand creative vision or hope for a financial return.

And all of that is compounded upon further problems for Donna Troy. Putting aside the fact that most people at DC view the character with even more disdain than they do Wonder Woman, with creatives trying to pitch Donna Troy solo titles only to be rejected. She is not really viewed as a vital member of the Titans. And the only big name stories to her name have been an origin story, a marriage, and a story where shes brought back to life as a figment of Wally Wests imagination.

So putting aside the mariad of problems Titans already has, Donna has to deal with the fact that
1. Editors don't care about her or consider her necessary.
2. She has no presence to speak of outside of Titans. No big stories with Wonder Woman. No strong ties to any other teams or even characters outside of the Titans.
3. The fact that many newer writers view the Titans integral members being the ones used in the most recent animated series and older writers tend to just copy the Wolfman Titans which doesn't work very well when they recieve the same reboot treatment that bleeped over Wonder Woman time and time again.

Donnas not as bad off as say, Lilith Clay. But she isn't in a great place.

Honestly the most positive thing to come for Donna in recent years is this Titans live action show.

[kcekada]

I suspect the costume instead of it being inspired by othe Legion's Starboy, is merely Donna's Bronze Age/New Teen Titans attire, with stars as a tribute to her tenure in the Darkstars in the nineties.

I agree that it may not have been inspired by Star Boy's outfit, but I'm certain that both Perez and Jimenez were well aware of Cockrum's design.

And that's fine. Perez just used that as a base and built on it -- maybe not as successfully as he'd have liked. Jimenz simplified that design -- which made it much closer to Cockrum's Star Boy. Also fine, but just didn't think it worked as well as the classic red with golden stars. And while we're discussing design - I always preferred the Cardy manner of multiple stars over the manner the stars were displayed by Perez.

[WonderScott]

S

I agree that it may not have been inspired by Star Boy's outfit, but I'm certain that both Perez and Jimenez were well aware of Cockrum's design.

And that's fine. Perez just used that as a base and built on it -- maybe not as successfully as he'd have liked. Jimenz simplified that design -- which made it much closer to Cockrum's Star Boy. Also fine, but just didn't think it worked as well as the classic red with golden stars. And while we're discussing design - I always preferred the Cardy manner of multiple stars over the manner the stars were displayed by Perez.

The scarlet spaghetti straps bodysuit or the star field halter top bodysuit are both so Donna to me, that I’d be up with either returning. Keeping Donna in Halston-inspired catsuits are a MUST.

[marhawkman]

The black and infinite star field is classic Donna. What are you talking about?



It's that armor, sword and shield nonsense that has no place being near Donna.

To me, THIS is Donna Troy.

[RealWonderman]

They've confirmed the red and gold suit, black boots, and Wonder Woman-like bracelets. Makes sense since she is called Wonder Girl in this world. I'd be happy if it was her permanent costume in TITANS, but it may just be for flashbacks or something.

My personal preference would be that she keeps the classic red and gold with black boots, and flashbacks have kid-Donna wearing the ponytail, star-spangled toga, and red ballet slippers.

[Ascended]

The thing to keep in mind is that the ones doing these actual stories are the writers who are not necesarily the ones who pushed for the book they were writing to be published.

Oh of course. There's tons of variables and factors that go into what gets published and by whom. And you're going to get duds. That's just a fact of creative industries; this stuff is alchemy, not hard science.

But that's not my point. My point is that we've got long running "glitches" in the program that DC seems incapable of fixing. Donna has been a mess longer than a lot of us here have been alive. That goes well beyond DC putting a ill-fitting writer on a book for a while.

There is no justifiable reason that I can see for Donna Troy's character to be as confusing as it is. Consistency is important for a product, and even though Donna is a minor gear in a larger franchise with much bigger problems than just her, it's been decades. And I struggle to believe that educated, creative professionals have never, in all this time, found a workable solution that management felt was worth enforcing.

[CRaymond]

There is no justifiable reason that I can see for Donna Troy's character to be as confusing as it is.

The venn diagram of Diana being both a fated chosen one and one who makes world-changing choices leaves very little room for a "kid sister" to exist with similar characteristics to the Donna Troy character.

We both know that. What's distressing is that DC Editorial takes such a light touch it may as well be a third rail.

[Agent Z]

The venn diagram of Diana being both a fated chosen one and one who makes world-changing choices leaves very little room for a "kid sister" to exist with similar characteristics to the Donna Troy character.

We both know that. What's distressing is that DC Editorial takes such a light touch it may as well be a third rail.

How?

10 chars.

[RealWonderman]

Character missteps aside, she's now the leader of the TITANS team.

[Confuzzled]

Donna and Diana being the respective leaders of Titans and Justice League simultaneously. Brilliant.

[Zahina]

I'm not much of a fan of Marston's take on WW, but I did like Amazon training granting people super powers. If you want an explanation for Donna's abilities just go with that.

I'm just curious, what are your dislikes about Marston's take on Wonder Woman?

[Agent Z]

I'm just curious, what are your dislikes about Marston's take on Wonder Woman?

The racism, the objectification of women, poor depiction of mental health.

[SiegePerilous02]

Character missteps aside, she's now the leader of the TITANS team.

Donna and Diana being the respective leaders of Titans and Justice League simultaneously. Brilliant.

If Abnett is writing it, she's probably going to be an ineffective alcoholic leader. So, meh...

[Ascended]

The venn diagram of Diana being both a fated chosen one and one who makes world-changing choices leaves very little room for a "kid sister" to exist with similar characteristics to the Donna Troy character.

We both know that. What's distressing is that DC Editorial takes such a light touch it may as well be a third rail.

It really does defy explanation, doesn't it? I dont get why DC acts this way with Donna, or why they haven't taken steps to rectifying the problem.