DC Wizards vs Marvel Mages

[Pendaran]

I get you on this. We’re still talking about a guy who, unlike Mephisto, goes into places, whips the universe around and MAKES it into his realm. That he can then blow the entire universe if he so chooses. One might argue that it’s his place, but he had, at one time, wandered into that place and made it his. Lather, rinse, repeat.

What I'm getting at is that it's not like he did an I Dream of Jeannie head bob and thus it happened. It's a whole thing he has to go through to link a realm to himself and at that point it's basically incredibly special circumstances as far as what he can now do with said realm. I don't really view it as something that speaks to his overall oomph so much as a very specific thing he can pull off.

As I understand, he creates beings like Satannish, who are ridiculously powerful in their own right, more powerful than Classic Strange, entities who have their own entreaties. Etc.

I'm a bit iffy on that one if only for that Satannish on other occasions is a peer of the overall grouping of netherworld lords just fine.

[Alan2099]

As much as I love Nextwave, I doubt it is Canon.

It is. Granted there was some tampering with the characters memories and some hints that some of the characters weren't the real ones but visitors from an alternate reality.

[Captain Smith]

My favorite sorcerer is Dr. Strangefate - who was a merger of Classic Fate, Strange, and Charles Xavier. Unfortunately, he never came to use those powers at full level and Classic Strange cleaned his clock. But what might have been?

I agree that the stated DC team loses this one.

[StupidMoniker]

My favorite sorcerer is Dr. Strangefate - who was a merger of Classic Fate, Strange, and Charles Xavier. Unfortunately, he never came to use those powers at full level and Classic Strange cleaned his clock. But what might have been?

Why was Xavier included in this amalgamation? Who knows (but really because the X-men have/had much higher name recognition than Doctors Strange and Fate combined)?

[MorphyVSFischer]

Put another way, what lies between Thanos and Skyfathers?

Furnace Face being a guy who punts around Classic Strange like a hackey sack when NOT in his place of power (has done this in neutral territory, when explicitly weakened), a guy who alters Universes on his own power...these are things Thanos simply can’t do. The Dorm is in a place a fair chunk above Thanos, such that a discussion of a fight between them in this board (if I recall correctly) ran ‘it goes about as well as it did against Odin - Thanos puts up surprising resistance but loses.’

Not to say Furnace Face is equal to Odin, no (I fully expect Odin would take out Thanos much quicker).

Actually just wondering but how does Classic Strange do against Thanos?

[Pendaran]

Without prep, Thanos is capable of overwhelming Strange before Strange can get anything really good going.

[Sharpandpointies]

What I'm getting at is that it's not like he did an I Dream of Jeannie head bob and thus it happened. It's a whole thing he has to go through to link a realm to himself and at that point it's basically incredibly special circumstances as far as what he can now do with said realm. I don't really view it as something that speaks to his overall oomph so much as a very specific thing he can pull off.

I get that. Heck, if Furnace Face could do it on a whim, we’d be having a VERY different discussion (ie all the Skyfathers want into HIS club).

My point is that he CAN go into a universe and totally corrupt it on his own power.

And another.

And another.

This is something the Hell Lords can’t do (the Dorm isn’t a Hell Lord, no matter what a writer might claim these days). This is something other dimensional entities can’t do. He can. And does.

This is a guy who Agamotto had such a problem with, he used to train beings to go out and fight him. The Dorm? Still around.

When someone calls on him, they get more than the usual bang for their buck (Strange, in fact, has in extreme situations).

He’s a cut above Hell Lords, he’s a cut above most of the other dimensional entities. And he corrupts entire universes. Not worlds. Not galaxies. Universes.

Not instantly, so it’s not the same as Galaxy Go Boom, but still.

This is something one needs to go pretty high up to match.

To clarify, I’m not saying ‘equal to Odin’, but would like to know what the lesser Skyfathers have done that sets them above the Dorm.

I'm a bit iffy on that one if only for that Satannish on other occasions is a peer of the overall grouping of netherworld lords just fine.

Them not being particularly more potent than the Surfer, as an example you’ve used, doesn’t put them in the Dorm’s range.

Actually just wondering but how does Classic Strange do against Thanos?

Without prep, Thanos is capable of overwhelming Strange before Strange can get anything really good going.

Pretty much.

That’s not to say it’s the same situation. In one, we have Thanos going balls-to-the-walls full power from the get-go in order to try to take out Stephen before Strange gets a solid incantation off, and Awful Things Start Happening. He’ll probably succeed, Stephen makes a fight of it.

The other, it’s Dormammu laughing and mocking Strange’s best efforts whilst kicking all hell out of him, Stephen desperately playing for time so that whatever odd plan he has comes to pass.

Heck Furnace Face can pour sufficient power into Mordo - someone who Strange, in the same storyline, treats like a joke - to allow Mordo to utterly curbstomp Strange. The Dorm does this from another dimension.

Another point is that regardless of what Marvel might be trying to claim now, the Dorm isn’t a Hell Lord. He doesn’t really give craps about souls. He’s not part of the gang that includes Mephisto, Satannish, etc. He’s of the Faltine, he’s a Lord of Chaos, and an extrdimensional tyrant whose hobby is Taking Over More universes, when he’s not trying to embarrass Strange for the ego boost.

[Beadle]

You missed out ‘attempting to murder his siblings’ under his hobbies.

[Alan2099]

I've always seen Dormammu's status as Hell Lord not as a good description for him, but more that the other hell lords have a lot in common with the guy and invite him to their parties.

[Pendaran]

My point is that he CAN go into a universe and totally corrupt it on his own power.

My own point is that in the grand scheme of things it's more reflective of a very specific thing Dormammu is capable of than a power demonstration. If he has to go through a whole process to link himself to a reality that way, it's basically just the equivalent of knowing a really particularly kick ass ritual that if he can complete it, proceeds to let him then do stuff.

To clarify, I’m not saying ‘equal to Odin’, but would like to know what the lesser Skyfathers have done that sets them above the Dorm.

Sticking to Marvel and off the top of my head, punching up the Hulk so hard his entire healing factor breaks for an extended period (not "temporarily overwhelmed in fight", straight up becomes broken, and not even as something Zeus was going out of his way to try to do), and this while the Hulk is being written by Greg Pak no less where the Hulk's healing factor was basically ludicrous.

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

While that's a decent showing for Zeus, a blow like that should have outright killed the Green Idiot. If Gladiator and Thanos can nearly kill the guy and they're below Skyfather themselves, how's that make Zeus particularly ... above that?

Yes, yes "cuz Greg Pak", and all but still.

[The Dork Knight]

When have Gladiator or Thanos "nearly killed" the Hulk?

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

When have Gladiator or Thanos "nearly killed" the Hulk?

Thanos did it in the newer/newest Starlin TPB, one where the new/alternate Adam Warlock one-shots the Surfer, IIRC. Beat him near to death, then brought the Hulk to the surviving heroes as a gesture of goodwill. Gladiator nearly did it with his heat vision or what have you.

[k von doom]

If Dormammu created Satannish, who's virtually Mephisto's equal (who in turn hangs out with Loki), then Dormammu would have to be levels above those three.

[The Dork Knight]

Thanos did it in the newer/newest Starlin TPB, one where the new/alternate Adam Warlock one-shots the Surfer, IIRC. Beat him near to death, then brought the Hulk to the surviving heroes as a gesture of goodwill. Gladiator nearly did it with his heat vision or what have you.

No Thanos brought him to his knees with an eye beam and his shields tanked Hulks blows. Hulk then followed him crawling to where the heroes were assembled (Hulk was the sentry hence attacked first). Hulk wasn't actually KOd. Thanos didn't bring him

I suppose you could say Thanos nearly one shotted Hulk without particularly trying, while his shields ignored Hulk wailing on him

The other fight with Gladiator, Hulk well... won