New Avengers 33 *spoilers*

[Biclopcicle]

We will see. I love the work around you guys use to explain the beyonders inspecting the first MM killing. The incursions started after year 7 but the beyonders discovered it after 10 years. The beyonders didn't get the message. Makes no sense. And not in line with the story.

But that's exactly what happened. There's no workaround... The Beyonders see a dead MM and then go back to their business... One dead MM isn't going to screw up their experiment. Billions will. The incursions had to be ongoing for some time to exponentially ramp up the MM/universe death rate. Obviously 1000 dead MM/universes didn't bother the Beyonders, so I don't understand your incredulity

[exiled]

But that's exactly what happened. There's no workaround... The Beyonders see a dead MM and then go back to their business... One dead MM isn't going to screw up their experiment. Billions will. The incursions had to be ongoing for some time to exponentially ramp up the MM/universe death rate. Obviously 1000 dead MM didn't bother the Beyonders, so I don't understand your incredulity

Where does it say they went about their business? If the Molecule man knows part of the future why send a message to the beyonders that he knows they won't get? I have re read the book so many times. Also mm says that had a "effect". It doesn't say early death. The effect was kill enough mm and there will be incursions. And once again the origin and the basis of reeds diagram was a lie. The early death of a universe did not cause the incursions. That was part of Rabum ' s origin. And it was a lie. You guys also skirt around the Map maker issue. The whole everything dies slowly and early is from the incursions caused by the number of mm killed. Have you re read the book with an open mind? To see how the story flows as a stand alone issue? I have many times. You guys are using one line in that story that says "killing a MM had an effect". And are constructing answers around the points I bring up. I'm not trying to be a jerk. It's a fun discussion. But you guys are going in the story with reeds map in your head instead of reading it as the story flows.

[vitruvian]

But that's exactly what happened. There's no workaround... The Beyonders see a dead MM and then go back to their business... One dead MM isn't going to screw up their experiment. Billions will. The incursions had to be ongoing for some time to exponentially ramp up the MM/universe death rate. Obviously 1000 dead MM/universes didn't bother the Beyonders, so I don't understand your incredulity

To be fair, we don't really know for sure if the individual universes die if their Molecule Men die early. It would be nice if Hickman clarified this point, but I suspect he's moved on from this part of the story. It is at least conceivable that a Molecule Man's universe only dies if that Molecule Man goes off because of the 'fuse' lit within him, not if he's snuffed out in some other manner. It's conceivable, as some have suggested, that Doom and the Swans are harvesting the energy of the 'bombs' for later use against the Beyonders.

However, that does leave us without an explicit explanation as to why killing enough of them sets off the Incursions. Having been introduced so recently to all the universes, it's not like their presence would be integral to those universes or the multiverse, such that their absence should in itself (i.e., without their universes going with them) have any impact on the timeline of the multiverse as a whole. If the universes do go with them (albeit not immediately, rendering them more metaphorical than literal 'bombs'), that would tie in better to Reed's oft-repeated spiel about the early death of a universe (not a person) triggering the Incursions, making it inaccurate only in that somewhat more than a thousand realities needed to snuff it before the 'vacuum' of their absence started crushing other universes together.

But the whole thing about the Beyonders seeing the first dead Molecule Man (and presumably the remainder of them as well) right away, but not figuring out that 'something was very wrong' until 10 years in to the culling of Molecule Men, so three years in with Incursions happening.... that's the case whether those universes died pretty quickly with their Molecule Men (just not soon enough to disallow examination of the crime scene), or not. Both interpretations paint the Beyonders as being just about as oblivious to things. Sure, whole universes going missing might be a bit more conspicuous (although they get culled by the Omniversal Guardian and others pretty frequently too, according to other stories), but on the other hand, the Molecule Men are the Beyonders' special bombs now, so their death alone would be seen as damaging to the experiment.

[jackolover]

To be fair, we don't really know for sure if the individual universes die if their Molecule Men die early. It would be nice if Hickman clarified this point, but I suspect he's moved on from this part of the story. It is at least conceivable that a Molecule Man's universe only dies if that Molecule Man goes off because of the 'fuse' lit within him, not if he's snuffed out in some other manner. It's conceivable, as some have suggested, that Doom and the Swans are harvesting the energy of the 'bombs' for later use against the Beyonders.

However, that does leave us without an explicit explanation as to why killing enough of them sets off the Incursions. Having been introduced so recently to all the universes, it's not like their presence would be integral to those universes or the multiverse, such that their absence should in itself (i.e., without their universes going with them) have any impact on the timeline of the multiverse as a whole. If the universes do go with them (albeit not immediately, rendering them more metaphorical than literal 'bombs'), that would tie in better to Reed's oft-repeated spiel about the early death of a universe (not a person) triggering the Incursions, making it inaccurate only in that somewhat more than a thousand realities needed to snuff it before the 'vacuum' of their absence started crushing other universes together.

But the whole thing about the Beyonders seeing the first dead Molecule Man (and presumably the remainder of them as well) right away, but not figuring out that 'something was very wrong' until 10 years in to the culling of Molecule Men, so three years in with Incursions happening.... that's the case whether those universes died pretty quickly with their Molecule Men (just not soon enough to disallow examination of the crime scene), or not. Both interpretations paint the Beyonders as being just about as oblivious to things. Sure, whole universes going missing might be a bit more conspicuous (although they get culled by the Omniversal Guardian and others pretty frequently too, according to other stories), but on the other hand, the Molecule Men are the Beyonders' special bombs now, so their death alone would be seen as damaging to the experiment.

Yeah, it does seem like the Beyonders wanted to blow up the Multiverse with MM's in one big KAPOW. But that Doom and the Swans just wanted to destroy the Multiverse in a controlled collapse, with Incursions. When the Beyonders discovered Dooms location and went there, it triggered Doom to attack the Beyonders, causing a sudden collapse of all the remaining Universes except a couple of dozen, for some reason. Maybe for Hickmans dramatic effect. I don't know why the collapse stopped just before the end. Certainly, I can't imagine the Beyonders wanting to create another Battleworld if their plan was to instantaneously destroy the whole Multiverse at once.

But are we in agreement the Incursions couldn't have started until MOLECULE MEN were created simultaneously in Fantastic Four #20, (so practically the whole Silver Age onwards)?

[exiled]

Having been introduced so recently to all the universes, it's not like their presence would be integral to those universes or the multiverse, such that their absence should in itself (i.e., without their universes going with them) have any impact on the timeline of the multiverse as a whole.

Here is where I disagree. When the first mm lays down to be sacrificed he says " he is the light". Being called the light in literature almost always symbolizes something great. Now remember the mm was sane when he said that. He said that to illustrate how important he is. He then goes on to say how he is unique in the multiverse. He is one man split into infinite parts. He also creates the idea for a manifold in each universe. He even says that he has the power to destroy the multiverse ( i think he was referring to his simultaneous detonation there.) This is all said to show how unique and important he is. We are talking about the killing of thousands of beings with near infinite power all LINKED throughout the multiverse. I have to think that killing thousands of beings like this will have an effect on the multiverse. That affect is incursions. Not the early death of a universe. That is the effect of the incursions. Hickman even goes on to say in avengers 32 "space time is an organism made up of universes. It exists like we do and evolves just like we do. In response to our environment." The incursions are a response by space time to killing mm. One last thing about the mm causing the early death of a universe. Why would the beyonders build something capable of doing that? Wouldn't that be contrary to their mission?

[ZNOP]

Here is where I disagree. When the first mm lays down to be sacrificed he says " he is the light". Being called the light in literature almost always symbolizes something great. Now remember the mm was sane when he said that. He said that to illustrate how important he is. He then goes on to say how he is unique in the multiverse. He is one man split into infinite parts. He also creates the idea for a manifold in each universe. He even says that he has the power to destroy the multiverse ( i think he was referring to his simultaneous detonation there.) This is all said to show how unique and important he is. We are talking about the killing of thousands of beings with near infinite power all LINKED throughout the multiverse. I have to think that killing thousands of beings like this will have an effect on the multiverse. That affect is incursions. Not the early death of a universe. That is the effect of the incursions. Hickman even goes on to say in avengers 32 "space time is an organism made up of universes. It exists like we do and evolves just like we do. In response to our environment." The incursions are a response by space time to killing mm. One last thing about the mm causing the early death of a universe. Why would the beyonders build something capable of doing that? Wouldn't that be contrary to their mission?

Err?? Isn't that how Rachel Grey (I.e., being "unique" throughout the multiverse) is currently being billed?

[exiled]

Err?? Isn't that how Rachel Grey (I.e., being "unique" throughout the multiverse) is currently being billed?

True. But a different kind of unique. Lol

[ZNOP]

True. But a different kind of unique. Lol

Oh, that's right. Those other Rachel(s) who look, walk, talk, and have the same power set as Rachel (811/616) aren't really her.

[jphamlore]

I think it has been stated the Multiverse is an evolving organism. I speculate the Beyonders injected Molecule Man like using a retrovirus to splice in what is at first junk DNA. But as the organism evolves, what was junk DNA eventually acquires some sort of function so that removing it would actually cause an additional mutation.

[exiled]

I think it has been stated the Multiverse is an evolving organism. I speculate the Beyonders injected Molecule Man like using a retrovirus to splice in what is at first junk DNA. But as the organism evolves, what was junk DNA eventually acquires some sort of function so that removing it would actually cause an additional mutation.

Hickman always gives us enough information to get to a conclusion. I agree with you. The removal of someone like the Molecule man would cause the multiverse to react. Incursions. And everything I am saying is in the text. I think why people believe that killing the mm would cause a universe to a die and that death to cause incursions is because they can't wrap their head around WHY killing him would cause incursions. But when you lay out how powerful he is and how unique and connected he is to the multiverse it makes sense why killing so many would cause the multiverse "organism" to react. He even bent the laws of temporal displacement by having his sanity restored at his origin point. Even Doom didn't understand how that was possible! He called himself a dichotomy of great science and celestial magic. I mean Hickman really goes out of his way to show how unique and powerful the mm is.

[exiled]

Like I said I think people struggle why killing a MM would cause an incursion so they go back to Reeds early death of a universe diagram. Now I am not saying the diagram was completely wrong. I am only saying the origin of it is wrong because the MM says to Doom "your origin will be a fiction that will become accepted as real".
In fact because I am bored I am going to lay out all of the different things said about the MM in the issue that signify how unique and important he is:
1) He bends the laws of temporal displacement in ways even Doom didn't comprehend. His sanity was restored at his origin point. According to Doom that should not have happened.
2) He is a dichotomy that only Doom can fully comprehend. He is natural and unnatural, a machine of great science and celestial magic. I have to thing "celestial magic" is significantly more powerful than what we know as regular magic.
3) He refers to himself as the "light perfectly hitting the flower". This signifies his importance in the multiverse in my opinion.
4) He is a bomb. He was constructed as a singular being across all of time and space. A single consciousness shared with infinite selves.
5) His origin happened simultaneously across every reality at the same time. It "charged" him.
6) He has the potential power to destroy any universe he is in and if all of him goes off at once he will destroy the multiverse.
7) He made an idea manifest and created "the manifold" throughout the multiverse. That is a God like quality. I'm talking biblical God.

When you lay all of this out and given what Hickman has told us about the multiverse being an "organism" why wouldn't killing thousands of beings like this in the "multiverse organism" cause a reaction?

[jphamlore]

Like I said I think people struggle why killing a MM would cause an incursion so they go back to Reeds early death of a universe diagram. Now I am not saying the diagram was completely wrong. I am only saying the origin of it is wrong because the MM says to Doom "your origin will be a fiction that will become accepted as real".
In fact because I am bored I am going to lay out all of the different things said about the MM in the issue that signify how unique and important he is:
1) He bends the laws of temporal displacement in ways even Doom didn't comprehend. His sanity was restored at his origin point. According to Doom that should not have happened.
2) He is a dichotomy that only Doom can fully comprehend. He is natural and unnatural, a machine of great science and celestial magic. I have to thing "celestial magic" is significantly more powerful than what we know as regular magic.
3) He refers to himself as the "light perfectly hitting the flower". This signifies his importance in the multiverse in my opinion.
4) He is a bomb. He was constructed as a singular being across all of time and space. A single consciousness shared with infinite selves.
5) His origin happened simultaneously across every reality at the same time. It "charged" him.
6) He has the potential power to destroy any universe he is in and if all of him goes off at once he will destroy the multiverse.
7) He made an idea manifest and created "the manifold" throughout the multiverse. That is a God like quality. I'm talking biblical God.

When you lay all of this out and given what Hickman has told us about the multiverse being an "organism" why wouldn't killing thousands of beings like this in the "multiverse organism" cause a reaction?

All good points.

I would note at least twice, New Avengers #29 and New Avengers #33, Molecule Man is showing working on / juggling multiple cubes that to me look suspiciously like Cosmic Cubes. After Doom opens his box to show Strange its contents, the cubes are no longer portrayed. I speculate Molecule Man fashions these nascient Cosmic Cubes from something of former universes and / or Molecule Men and deposits them in this box.

I am curious whether Doom shouts "No!" seeing the great explosion of the box with the Beyonders because it was way unexpected in extent or because it happened at all. I am reminded of the story of the first atomic bomb test where the geniuses of the Manhattan Project quickly did a back of the envelope calculation to reassure themselves it should not ignite the atmosphere, but what if they had been wrong and it had? Or did Doom as I suspect intend for each Cosmic Cube to trap a Beyonder, with Hickman finding yet another ingenious way of incorporating past Marvel stories about the Beyonder into his.

[exiled]

All good points.

I would note at least twice, New Avengers #29 and New Avengers #33, Molecule Man is showing working on / juggling multiple cubes that to me look suspiciously like Cosmic Cubes. After Doom opens his box to show Strange its contents, the cubes are no longer portrayed. I speculate Molecule Man fashions these nascient Cosmic Cubes from something of former universes and / or Molecule Men and deposits them in this box.

I am curious whether Doom shouts "No!" seeing the great explosion of the box with the Beyonders because it was way unexpected in extent or because it happened at all. I am reminded of the story of the first atomic bomb test where the geniuses of the Manhattan Project quickly did a back of the envelope calculation to reassure themselves it should not ignite the atmosphere, but what if they had been wrong and it had? Or did Doom as I suspect intend for each Cosmic Cube to trap a Beyonder, with Hickman finding yet another ingenious way of incorporating past Marvel stories about the Beyonder into his.

Yeah I can't wait to see what was in that Box. It made the Swans rebel. We will find out soon enough..lol

[Shai-Hulud]

Yeah I can't wait to see what was in that Box. It made the Swans rebel. We will find out soon enough..lol

Doom needed some of the Swans to rebel. He probably let them sneak into his sanctum. After all, he needed a pretext to send Yabbat on her way, where he knew she would eventually encounter the 616 Illuminati and close the temporal loop.

If Yabbat doesn't get exiled from the Library, the 616 Illuminati die in their world's first incursion. Which means 616 Doom also dies, never becoming Rabum Alal.

Once Doom becomes Rabum Alal, he has to seal that loop. I can't see Doom leaving that to chance, so Yabbat has been played all along.

[jphamlore]

Yeah I can't wait to see what was in that Box. It made the Swans rebel. We will find out soon enough..lol

The solicitation for Secret Wars #5 that mentions Owen Reece makes me fear we actually aren't finding out until July.