Star Wars 7 - The Spoilers Awaken :)

[abysslord]

True, which is the movie's fault, and failing. Even in ANH, when we have no context for the actions that led to the events of the film, it's made clear WHY Obi-Wan has been on Tatooine. Literally all we're told in this is "Luke Skywalker has vanished." And then we're shown how he abandoned his friends and family the moment times got tough. It's on the filmmakers to make that anything other than an act of cowardice, and they failed. Could that be fixed by an Episode 8? Of course. But even then it would remain an abject failure on the part of Episode 7.

I think it was just supposed to build a mystery so you have questions for the next movie, as well as make Luke's appearance at the end have more impact. You see him but you still don't know what has happened to him. I mean, the fact that we're discussing it is the point I think. We know Luke's character up to Ep. 6 so what could have possibly made him want to disappear?

[Nite-Wing]

Yeah Rey and Finn are fundamentally imbalanced Rey has all the skills and Finn has none when compared to Luke and Han.

Finn came up with most of the plans in the movie
He was literally telling Han what to do at points now in comparison to Rey yeah its definitely imbalanced as hell
Which makes people in turn think Finn is a side character and not a co lead
Maybe they'll fix that in ep 8

[abulafia]

Luke's self-seclusion strikes me as an exercise of the "Achilles In His Tent" trope. Even in THE ILIAD, that trope was always narratively dicey.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

i am just glad that he learned from yoda´s bad example and brought a washing machine with him

also, the idea has been explored in the old EU

Darth Vader had a fortress retreat on Coruscant's northern hemisphere on the shoreline of the Great Western Sea. From the top of the retreat, the Manarai Mountains could be seen to the east. There were no Imperial City records that mentioned if Vader really had lived there, but it was constructed for him in accordance with his instructions. It had been empty when the New Republic took Coruscant, and it was destroyed by a B-wing starfighter's blasters.

Luke Skywalker discovered it in 16 ABY. As he was in the middle of a crisis of his faith in the Force, believing that as one grew stronger in its use the stronger the dark side tempted them, he pieced together the retreat's ruins and stones from the sea, and went inside to meditate. Luke later invited Han Solo to drive out to the shore and enter the retreat. He would later destroy it again after realizing that cutting himself off from the galaxy was not the answer to staving off the dark side.

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i don´t get the main motivation for both sides in this conflict. last time luke tried to restart the jedi order, snoke was able to sabotage it easily.
why are they afraid of luke returning? shouldn´t the dialog be "let him return from that hole he is hidding himself. we will crush his dreams and efforts once and forever"?

[David Walton]

True, which is the movie's fault, and failing. Even in ANH, when we have no context for the actions that led to the events of the film, it's made clear WHY Obi-Wan has been on Tatooine. Literally all we're told in this is "Luke Skywalker has vanished." And then we're shown how he abandoned his friends and family the moment times got tough. It's on the filmmakers to make that anything other than an act of cowardice, and they failed. Could that be fixed by an Episode 8? Of course. But even then it would remain an abject failure on the part of Episode 7.

I think we have enough to go on to believe that Luke has credible motives, if ultimately flawed. Obviously he reaches a point where he believes his presence is causing more harm than good, at least until he can find whatever he's looking for at the first Jedi Temple. If he'd made himself a target, he might have been killed or turned, which wouldn't have done anyone any good. But maybe he's found whatever he's looking for at the temple, given that there's been an 'awakening.'

In interviews, writers have said that early drafts had Luke showing up mid-way through the film, but the problem was that it would then become his story instead of Rey's. I think they made the right call.

[BeastieRunner]

So after seeing it with my son and mother on Sunday (my 3rd time, woot!) ...

• My wife thinks Rey is Luke's daughter.
• I still think Rey's a Solo.
• My mom think she's Leia's, but Han never knew he had a daughter (she was pregnant when Han left after Ben turned).
• My son doesn't care, he wants a lightsaber.

[Punisher007]

I think we have enough to go on to believe that Luke has credible motives, if ultimately flawed. Obviously he reaches a point where he believes his presence is causing more harm than good, at least until he can find whatever he's looking for at the first Jedi Temple. If he'd made himself a target, he might have been killed or turned, which wouldn't have done anyone any good. But maybe he's found whatever he's looking for at the temple, given that there's been an 'awakening.'

In interviews, writers have said that early drafts had Luke showing up mid-way through the film, but the problem was that it would then become his story instead of Rey's. I think they made the right call.

My theory is that he's trying to understand why this keeps happening to his family. I mean look at it from his POV:

-His father "fell" and became a mass-murdering psycho.
-His nephew also "fell" and became a mass-murdering psycho.
-He flirting with the Dark Side in ROTJ and only managed to pull himself back at the last minute.

That isn't a great track record.

[Cleric of Hell’s Brigade]

All around, my brother, nephew and I gave it all 8/10. Enjoyable, very fun and we all liked Rey, Finn, Po, and BB8. However, it would have been higher if Kylo had been a descent villain and the pacing hadn't been quite so fast paced.

I mean, from leaving Jakku to finding Luke seemed to take maybe three days it seemed. And that seems generous. The passage of time isn't really done well in the movie.

Otherwise, it was great and fun. Would recommend.

[Jeremi]

Saw it today.

Very predictable plotwise but I enjoyed it quite a bit all the same.

[David Walton]

My theory is that he's trying to understand why this keeps happening to his family. I mean look at it from his POV:

-His father "fell" and became a mass-murdering psycho.
-His nephew also "fell" and became a mass-murdering psycho.
-He flirting with the Dark Side in ROTJ and only managed to pull himself back at the last minute.

That isn't a great track record.

I definitely think that's cause for introspection. I'm not really sure how much Luke 'flirted' with the Dark Side in ROTJ, though. Sure, he was pissed at his father for threatening to corrupt Leia, but he never wanted to join Palpatine. But I guess I kind of differ with Lucas on what would constitute going over to the Dark Side. Or maybe Lucas differs with Lucas. I mean, Obi-Wan didn't have any real compunctions about killing his enemies, and it's never implied that he was remotely close to the Dark Side. So it seems like maybe the emphasis switched a bit from ANH to ROTJ.

BTW, I'm not arguing that Luke should have killed Vader. I just find it odd that Luke had killed so often--justifiably so, in the context of the film-- but they act as though Vader would be the breaking point. You know, the guy who obliterated a planet to make his point.

But I guess that's a pretty common trope in films, where heroes will kills minions with wild abandon but won't kill the guy responsible for everything for fear of stooping to their level.

[abysslord]

- but they act as though Vader would be the breaking point. You know, the guy who obliterated a planet to make his point.

I think Obi-Wan and Yoda were more afraid of how it would happen. They probably knew the Emperor would manipulate him into killing Vader with anger/hatred, which is the way you become corrupt. If you were just battling him and killed him like Obi-Wan did to Darth Maul (I guess he survived now in canon?), it's okay.

[DrNewGod]

I definitely think that's cause for introspection. I'm not really sure how much Luke 'flirted' with the Dark Side in ROTJ, though. Sure, he was pissed at his father for threatening to corrupt Leia, but he never wanted to join Palpatine. But I guess I kind of differ with Lucas on what would constitute going over to the Dark Side. Or maybe Lucas differs with Lucas. I mean, Obi-Wan didn't have any real compunctions about killing his enemies, and it's never implied that he was remotely close to the Dark Side. So it seems like maybe the emphasis switched a bit from ANH to ROTJ.

You are correct that Obi-Wan didn't flinch at lethal, or even merely mutilating violence. Neither did Mace nor Yoda. However, that's not what falling to the Dark Side means for a Jedi. It means having their intent and acts stem from fear, anger, hatred, jealousy, selfishness and/or other negatively passionate motives, rather than seeking serenity and acting from unselfish purposes. Lucas wasn't very specific about it in ANH, but was quite consistent on this difference between the Jedi and the Sith from TESB through the rest of his films.

Luke was virtually incorruptible, in spite of Obi-Wan and Yoda's fears.

We interpret this very differently; Luke was quite completely susceptible to corruption and came very close to falling to the Dark Side in his final confrontation with Darth Vader. Vader provoked him into acting from fear and anger, and boiling with rage, Luke went to the very brink. My interpretation was that it was only the sight of his father severed cybernetic limb - eerily similar to Luke's own prosthesis - that shocked Luke into enough of a pause that he realized how close he was to becoming the very thing that he'd only moments before attempted to furiously kill. A very narrow thing.

[David Walton]

You are correct that Obi-Wan didn't flinch at lethal, or even merely mutilating violence. Neither did Mace nor Yoda. However, that's not what falling to the Dark Side means for a Jedi. It means having their intent and acts stem from fear, anger, hatred, jealousy, selfishness and/or other negatively passionate motives, rather than seeking serenity and acting from unselfish purposes. Lucas wasn't very specific about it in ANH, but was quite consistent on this difference between the Jedi and the Sith from TESB through the rest of his films.

We interpret this very differently; Luke was quite completely susceptible to corruption and came very close to falling to the Dark Side in his final confrontation with Darth Vader. Vader provoked him into acting from fear and anger, and boiling with rage, Luke went to the very brink. My interpretation was that it was only the sight of his father severed cybernetic limb - eerily similar to Luke's own prosthesis - that shocked Luke into enough of a pause that he realized how close he was to becoming the very thing that he'd only moments before attempted to furiously kill. A very narrow thing.

You're probably right. I actually don't have a problem with Luke showing Vader mercy, I just never entirely bought into the idea that he'd inevitably become an irredeemable monster if he had killed him.

[Blue Reloaded]

I think Obi-Wan and Yoda were more afraid of how it would happen. They probably knew the Emperor would manipulate him into killing Vader with anger/hatred, which is the way you become corrupt. If you were just battling him and killed him like Obi-Wan did to Darth Maul (I guess he survived now in canon?), it's okay.

It sure looked like hatred and anger on Rey's face at the end when she knocked down Ren. She reminded me a lot of Darth Maul with the way she looked like a caged animal on the loose.

[gwangung]

Finn came up with most of the plans in the movie
He was literally telling Han what to do at points now in comparison to Rey yeah its definitely imbalanced as hell
Which makes people in turn think Finn is a side character and not a co lead
Maybe they'll fix that in ep 8

Yup. I get why people think Finn is a supporting character, but, seriously....look at what he did:

a) Successfully defected
b) Rescued a Resistance prisoner
c) Defended himself with unfamiliar weapons
d) Took up the Resistance's mission AND COMPLETED IT SUCCESSFULLY.

And he did it all without getting too many people on his side killed or even seriously hurt. That excuses a lot of his bumbles and mis-steps--bringing home the bacon is what matters, after all.

I dunno about you, but if I were Resistance leadership, I'd be looking at him carefully for more missions. If he can do all that without a speck of espionage training, you'd have to think about what he could do WITH some.

[David Walton]

It sure looked like hatred and anger on Rey's face at the end when she knocked down Ren. She reminded me a lot of Darth Maul with the way she looked like a caged animal on the loose.

Perhaps he's saying that there's a difference between getting angry in battle and killing an already defeated opponent? If that's the difference, then I get ROTJ. But if it's just about getting angry, I think people rarely fight if they don't have something worth fighting for. Obi-Wan was clearly pissed when Darth Maul killed Qui-Gon-Jinn, and if memory serves, it was his anger that turned the tide of battle. But maybe I read that scene wrong.