Do Spider-Man's villains suck?

[Prof. Warren]

This is not true in the slightest. The Sturdy One has made his opinions clear on this:

"Now digest this: I knew from Day One, from the first GG story, who the GG would be. I absolutely knew because I planted him in J. Jonah Jameson’s businessman's club, it was where JJJ and the GG could be seen together. I planted them together in other stories where the GG would not appear in costume, action. I wanted JJJ’s and the GG’s lives to mix for later story drama involving more than just the two characters. I planted the GG’s son (same distinctive hair style) in the college issues for more dramatic involvement and storyline consequences. So how could there be any doubt, dispute, about who the GG had to turn out to be when unmasked?"
-- Steve Ditko

Ditko always intended Norman Osborn to be the Green Goblin. That's the reason why in his final issues he had Norman show up as a regular character, and more or less being a total douchebag without redeeming virtues, framing Mendell Stromm and in Ditko's last issue, siccing a mob on Peter while wearing a green suit.

https://www.cbr.com/comic-book-legen...ed-400-part-1/

The myth that Ditko didn't want Norman to be Goblin came later along with a bunch of nonsensical statements: Ditko had issues with Norman being an evil businessman (if he did then why did he show him far more unsympathetically than Lee-Romita did). John Romita Sr. who took over was totally shocked and dumbfounded when he heard that. He took over in the belief that it was a stopgap gig before Ditko returned and wanted to be totally consistent to what Ditko set up. He never would have been party to Goblin being someone other than Ditko chose. Stan Lee later repeated this but according to Mark Evanier himself his memory is poor. Lee also lied about MJ as Romita Sr. pointed out in Comics Creators where he once said Ditko intended her to be ugly, only Romita Sr. said that MJ was established as a stunner in #25 (Ditko's first issue in plotting).

That's the internet for you. Access to information, data checking, huge resources...as opposed to older oral traditions.

I hate to break it to you but the internet isn't always a reliable source of facts. In case you hadn't heard, it can be misleading.

As for the legend that Lee and Ditko argued over the reveal of GG's identity, the article you linked you says "Seems to be false."

And it may well be. On the other hand, Stan himself continually fueled the belief that he and Ditko disagreed on who the Goblin would be.

If there was no dispute on that matter, it seems odd that such a legend would grow around it. But, these things can happen. As for Ditko's comments from 2009, I'm inclined to look at the statement of a eighty something year old with a long time reputation for being a bit of an odd duck recalling events of forty years prior with just a little skepticism. Ditko may be misremembering. He may be trying to claim greater ownership over the Green Goblin. Or he may be telling the straight truth. We don't know. His statements can be taken as clearing up a long-standing mystery or they can just further add to the speculation. Without Lee corroborating Ditko's statements, it's just one participant's version of events that were, at that point, long in the past.

All of this to say that the full story will never be fully confirmed, which is why CBR had to qualify their story with "seems," not "not true in the slightest."

But aside from whatever behind the scenes conflicts ultimately drove Ditko from Marvel, my original point concerning GG's ability to elude capture in the Ditko stories being that the entire hook behind his character was to prolong the mystery of his reveal still stands. Among the many mystery villains in the Ditko era, the Goblin was the one that they wanted us to keep guessing about.

[Russ840]

Green Goblin gets onto the "greatest villains of all time" list by one story and one story only.

He killed Gwen Stacy during a time when that sort of thing just wasn't done. Before that, he wasn't really any bigger of a villain than Electro or Mysterio. that story also killed him. Then only after the fact was he really put into the category of greatest villains and frankly, a lot of that had just as much to do wit his legacy as it did him. Hobgoblin and Harry made things rough for Peter for ages and frankly made for better villains, but because they were inspired by him they fall into the category of "Norman's legacy" so he tends to get credit for them too.

Then they brought him back. That's when Marvel decided that he had to live up to his reputation, a reputation that he never actually had while he was alive. To do this, they basically had to change his entire personality so he could be the secret mastermind behind everything that ever happened to Spider-man. A good portion of the time, his push came off as so obvious that it hurt.

I wouldn’t say that. He was leagues beyond the average Spidey foe early on. He figured out who Spidey was in Amazing 39 & 40. That was pretty big. No other villain had done this and this ultimately led to killing Gwen. He never would have if he hadn’t the knowledge of who Peter was.

Him figuring out who Spidey was is when he became Spidey’s greatest villain. That’s the way I see it anyway.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Him figuring out who Spidey was is when he became Spidey’s greatest villain. That’s the way I see it anyway.

That actually was fairly unprecedented at the time. No Batman or Superman villain straight up deciphered the hero's identity and then in civilian guise became part of the supporting cast, with the constant suspense being when he would break out hovering over anything. In general archnemesis never figured out the identity. Joker and Luthor in their most popular and consistent depictions never learn the identities of the heroes. So Green Goblin, the guy who never went to jail, who figured out the hero's identity, and who upon reveal instantly became part of the hero's supporting cast and this living timebomb. And throughout the L-R era, there was always this suspense that Norman would snap. The closest example is Mr. Mxyzsptlk the fifth dimensional imp who knew Superman's identity but he was more a harmless prankster and someone Superman outsmarted all the time and the only story where that became an actual issue is the one Alan Moore wrote to detonate the Silver-Bronze Age Superman and that was 20 years later. Neal Adams and others in 1970 introduced Ra's Al Ghul, who figured out Bruce's identity from the start, and later you had Strange Apparitions where Hugo Strange unmasks Bruce.

The fact is Green Goblin killing Gwen didn't make him the archnemesis. He was chosen to kill Gwen because he was the archnemesis before that. As Conway and others said, the whole point of that story was to kill Gwen and move her out to shake things up and move Peter with MJ and away from what he and many others saw as a dead-end relationship (she hated Spider-Man, blamed him for her father's death, and the longer that relationship continued the more Peter lied and the more he came off as a masochist and gaslighter). In theory any villain could have worked. The Mindworm let's say. Supporting characters did die before. Like Betty Brant's brother, or Frederick Foswell, and Captain Stacy. But their deaths didn't carry any real sting. Like Dr. Octopus wasn't blamed in the story after for George Stacy's death, that was collateral damage and he was involved in that goofball plot with Aunt May that Conway made into an engagement, and that prevented anyone from taking him seriously for a long time. But making it the Goblin upped the stakes and personal tragedy, and him knowing Peter's identity also made Spider-Man's decision to spare Norman in ASM#40 and not turn him into the police that much more tragic.

Green Goblin doesn't even need to kill Gwen to be an Arch-Enemy. Look at Ultimate Spider-Man where he is the main threat without killing any girlfriend. Or Sam Raimi's films where in the first movie he killed 22 people (the biggest bodycount of any screen villain) but didn't kill MJ or Aunt May. In TASM-2, it's Harry Osborn who killed Gwen, and that didn't make Harry an arch-enemy or made everyone think "yeah Harry is a badass". That movie ultimately proved and clarified to many why Gwen died in the comics and why she didn't have to in the movie because the story by itself doesn't make sense or have an impact outside the comics' specific context.

I hate to break it to you but the internet isn't always a reliable source of facts.

I cited CBR and its Legends Reveal column, not wikipedia, or social media. It wasn't the first time Ditko corrected this either. And in either case the evidence checks out with what's in the book. Norman Osborn with his distinct Joseph Cotten hairstyle makes a number of background appearances throughout that time. Harry Osborn has the same exact hairstyle. ASM#25-38 were entirely plotted by Ditko as Stan Lee has admitted and they weren't speaking to each other at the time. The issues before his reveal has Norman shown as a shady creep. Furthermore, Romita Sr. himself said Lee had a history of misrepresenting Ditko's work and as noted later (https://www.cbr.com/comic-book-quest...left-the-book/) tried to downplay Steve's presence, contribution, and work in letters columns after he left. Whereas Ditko always said that Spider-Man was a co-creation and never entirely his. So between the two, Lee is the more proven and unreliable narrator.

Among the many mystery villains in the Ditko era, the Goblin was the one that they wanted us to keep guessing about.

That's not exactly the case. When Roger Stern created the Hobgoblin, he introduced many Red Herrings and actively wanted readers to keep guessing who he was. The Hobgoblin mystery after he left became this annoying and interminable dead-end where multiple people were faked-out and accused of being the Hobgoblin. In the case of Green Goblin, there was never any red herring in the book. Peter never had suspicions or ideas of who the Goblin could be. Never investigated him. There was never any false leads. Everything was set up for it to be Norman.

[Prof. Warren]

I cited CBR and its Legends Reveal column, not wikipedia, or social media. It wasn't the first time Ditko corrected this either. And in either case the evidence checks out with what's in the book. Norman Osborn with his distinct Joseph Cotten hairstyle makes a number of background appearances throughout that time. Harry Osborn has the same exact hairstyle. ASM#25-38 were entirely plotted by Ditko as Stan Lee has admitted and they weren't speaking to each other at the time. The issues before his reveal has Norman shown as a shady creep. Furthermore, Romita Sr. himself said Lee had a history of misrepresenting Ditko's work and as noted later (https://www.cbr.com/comic-book-quest...left-the-book/) tried to downplay Steve's presence, contribution, and work in letters columns after he left. Whereas Ditko always said that Spider-Man was a co-creation and never entirely his. So between the two, Lee is the more proven and unreliable narrator.

Possible, sure. Stan was obviously something of an embellisher at times.

But it's always going to be a he said/he said situation. You can choose to believe who you want but the actual truth is going to forever remain in doubt.

That's not exactly the case. When Roger Stern created the Hobgoblin, he introduced many Red Herrings and actively wanted readers to keep guessing who he was. The Hobgoblin mystery after he left became this annoying and interminable dead-end where multiple people were faked-out and accused of being the Hobgoblin. In the case of Green Goblin, there was never any red herring in the book. Peter never had suspicions or ideas of who the Goblin could be. Never investigated him. There was never any false leads. Everything was set up for it to be Norman.

When Roger Stern created the Hobgoblin, he wanted to recreate the kind of guessing game that the original Green Goblin embodied. Of course, he leaned into it even harder for the sake of a then more sophisticated readership.

While Peter never tried to deduce the Goblin's identity, that didn't mean that readers themselves weren't wrapped up in the riddle who he could be. Clearly Lee and Ditko had fun stringing readers along, refusing to show the Goblin's face and dropping various hints along the way.

[Uncanny Mutie]

if Spidey is able to learn from these fights and gain more skills doesn't it stand to reason that the villains would too? Mysterio alone has ramped up his game big time over the years. To the point where he can even fool the heightened senses of Wolverine and Daredevil.

Great point!

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Possible, sure. Stan was obviously something of an embellisher at times.

But it's always going to be a he said/he said situation. You can choose to believe who you want but the actual truth is going to forever remain in doubt.

The burden of proof is always going to be on the people who make the counter-argument. Initially nobody doubted that Norman was to be the Goblin, then a rumor came that there was a dispute, Lee heard the rumor and having, in his own opinion and Mark Evanier's, a faulty memory, latched on to it. There's no evidence for the veracity of the rumor but plenty of evidence for the veracity of the previous one. So rationally, there's no reason to doubt the truth. Entirely new evidence needs to be offered to defend this.

The big arguments put by people that Ditko was against Norman being the Goblin was that he had issues with a businessman being evil, and that he wanted the person behind the mask to be a nobody for the sake of realism. The problem with the first notion is that Ditko himself, in stories where he had greater control on the plotting, showed Norman as scum. In fact the modern Post-Resurrection Norman is far truer to Ditko's version than Lee-Romita's amnesiac-lame-Dad phase. And in the case of the second notion, Ditko did the nobody behind the mask with the Crime Master. And the third is that Norman wasn't truly known to Peter. The first time Peter and Norman met was in ASM#40, and Peter's first reaction is along the lines of "Of course, you would be the dad of that douchebag Harry Osborn." He was known to the reader and familiarized with the readers but not with Peter.

Roger Stern in this podcast at Crawlspace after Ditko died in 2018 (https://player.fm/series/series-2406...er-steve-ditko) also says in response to the rumor when asked about it, that he doesn't believe it. He points out Ditko established Norman as the Goblin, showed him as a shady creep in the stories leading up to that and did the Crime Master thing. Tom DeFalco also interviewed says he has no time for that rumor.

[Prof. Warren]

The burden of proof is always going to be on the people who make the counter-argument. Initially nobody doubted that Norman was to be the Goblin, then a rumor came that there was a dispute, Lee heard the rumor and having, in his own opinion and Mark Evanier's, a faulty memory, latched on to it. There's no evidence for the veracity of the rumor but plenty of evidence for the veracity of the previous one. So rationally, there's no reason to doubt the truth. Entirely new evidence needs to be offered to defend this.

The big arguments put by people that Ditko was against Norman being the Goblin was that he had issues with a businessman being evil, and that he wanted the person behind the mask to be a nobody for the sake of realism. The problem with the first notion is that Ditko himself, in stories where he had greater control on the plotting, showed Norman as scum. In fact the modern Post-Resurrection Norman is far truer to Ditko's version than Lee-Romita's amnesiac-lame-Dad phase. And in the case of the second notion, Ditko did the nobody behind the mask with the Crime Master. And the third is that Norman wasn't truly known to Peter. The first time Peter and Norman met was in ASM#40, and Peter's first reaction is along the lines of "Of course, you would be the dad of that douchebag Harry Osborn." He was known to the reader and familiarized with the readers but not with Peter.

Roger Stern in this podcast at Crawlspace after Ditko died in 2018 (https://player.fm/series/series-2406...er-steve-ditko) also says in response to the rumor when asked about it, that he doesn't believe it. He points out Ditko established Norman as the Goblin, showed him as a shady creep in the stories leading up to that and did the Crime Master thing. Tom DeFalco also interviewed says he has no time for that rumor.

At this point, with both Stan and Steve being dead, and also with the storyline being fifty some odd years behind us, it doesn't much matter.

But certainly, whether Norman was always meant to be GG or not, it was presented as an ongoing mystery throughout Ditko's run.

As classic as Romita Sr.'s debut was, I always feel like it would have been a perfect capper to Ditko's run had he been the one to draw that tale.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

As classic as Romita Sr.'s debut was, I always feel like it would have been a perfect capper to Ditko's run had he been the one to draw that tale.

I agree with that. Having said that I rather like how #38 ends. The final image of Peter going up the stairs in his house is a mirror to the last panel of AF#15. Ditko's first issue on which he had plotting credit (ASM#25) had Mary Jane's first pre-appearance and his last issue ASM #38, has Peter just missing her in the penultimate panels. So it's kind of a neat book-end to the different periods of "Sturdy" Steve Ditko's time on Spider-Man.

Lee-Romita's first 14 issues of Spider-Man is just remarkable. We talk about a run starting strong but even after all this time, nothing beats this. Ditko left the title in July 1966. And in the next 14 month stretch saw the following stuff happen one-after-the-other: Green Goblin unmasked as Noman Osborn after unmasking Spider-Man before, the first time any villain did that, Peter finally gets himself a peer-age appropriate supporting cast: Harry Osborn, Gwen Stacy, Flash Thompson (gone from bully, to sorta cordial). Mary Jane Watson as designed by John Romita makes her grand debut after being teased by Lee-Ditko in many appearances. She becomes the breakout character. The Peter-Gwen-Mary Jane love triangle. The introduction of Rhino and the Kingpin, two of the longest lasting post-Ditko rogues. Spider-Man No More, Issue #50, a classic trope in Spidey mythos, ultimately adapted into ''Spider-Man 2''. And of course if you go to ASM #51, you have the first appearance of Joe "Robbie" Robertson, the first major black character in Spider-Man comics. Continue on to #57 and you have Captain George Stacy.

[Prof. Warren]

I agree with that. Having said that I rather like how #38 ends. The final image of Peter going up the stairs in his house is a mirror to the last panel of AF#15. Ditko's first issue on which he had plotting credit (ASM#25) had Mary Jane's first pre-appearance and his last issue ASM #38, has Peter just missing her in the penultimate panels. So it's kind of a neat book-end to the different periods of "Sturdy" Steve Ditko's time on Spider-Man.

Lee-Romita's first 14 issues of Spider-Man is just remarkable. We talk about a run starting strong but even after all this time, nothing beats this. Ditko left the title in July 1966. And in the next 14 month stretch saw the following stuff happen one-after-the-other: Green Goblin unmasked as Noman Osborn after unmasking Spider-Man before, the first time any villain did that, Peter finally gets himself a peer-age appropriate supporting cast: Harry Osborn, Gwen Stacy, Flash Thompson (gone from bully, to sorta cordial). Mary Jane Watson as designed by John Romita makes her grand debut after being teased by Lee-Ditko in many appearances. She becomes the breakout character. The Peter-Gwen-Mary Jane love triangle. The introduction of Rhino and the Kingpin, two of the longest lasting post-Ditko rogues. Spider-Man No More, Issue #50, a classic trope in Spidey mythos, ultimately adapted into ''Spider-Man 2''. And of course if you go to ASM #51, you have the first appearance of Joe "Robbie" Robertson, the first major black character in Spider-Man comics. Continue on to #57 and you have Captain George Stacy.

I find it impossible to choose between which classic Spidey run is my favorite: Lee/Ditko or Lee/Romita Sr..

They both represent the pinnacle of superhero comics, in my opinion. Most of the time I have to give the edge to Ditko but on the other hand those Romita issues are just so good. But why choose, right? They're both brilliant runs in their own ways.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

I find it impossible to choose between which classic Spidey run is my favorite: Lee/Ditko or Lee/Romita Sr..

They both represent the pinnacle of superhero comics, in my opinion. Most of the time I have to give the edge to Ditko but on the other hand those Romita issues are just so good. But why choose, right? They're both brilliant runs in their own ways.

Yeah. I'll say Ditko's run is more consistent. Lee-Romita had two peaks (39-51 and a few issues after that), and then again from ASM#87 to the drug trilogy, and between and after those peaks there are steep valleys. The Death of Captain Stacy is the masterpiece of that era for me. Whereas there's almost always something to see and enjoy in every one of Ditko's issues.

[Michael Watkins]

Morbius sucks blood

[PCN24454]

Kraven IMO is overrated

[SpideyCeo]

Bump to say the new joker movie is more the reason Spidey villains won't be any more than a joke as interesting character for their roles, they actually have to go anti hero to generate the same level of acknowledgement as Harley Quinn.

[gregpersons]

I don't think Spider-Man's rogues are bad, but I do think they are over-rated... they're pretty cool in their original context because of Ditko's weird imagination (I mean 'weird' in a complimentary way), but even then, they're still kinda just "strong man robs bank in costume."

Batman is always getting new villains, it seems like... they're not just trotting out The Penguin every year, whereas Spidey seems to see the likes of Electro, Sandman, Shocker, etc, on a consistent basis.

So I think Spidey just needs some new ones in there. And if that were to happen, I'd like to see more of the classic rogues become more like Rhino, where they basically reform, and then just kinda become supporting characters in a colorful world. That is an area that a lot of superhero stories that Spider-Man could be perfect for -- reformed super-villains who still keep their eccentric costumes and powers... who don't become heroes exactly, but ... kinda like what ASM has been doing with J Jonah Jameson, I guess.

It's a fun way to keep around the classics + have growth + always maintain the possibility that they could go bad again when needed.

[PCN24454]

I don't think Spider-Man's rogues are bad, but I do think they are over-rated... they're pretty cool in their original context because of Ditko's weird imagination (I mean 'weird' in a complimentary way), but even then, they're still kinda just "strong man robs bank in costume."

Batman is always getting new villains, it seems like... they're not just trotting out The Penguin every year, whereas Spidey seems to see the likes of Electro, Sandman, Shocker, etc, on a consistent basis.

So I think Spidey just needs some new ones in there. And if that were to happen, I'd like to see more of the classic rogues become more like Rhino, where they basically reform, and then just kinda become supporting characters in a colorful world. That is an area that a lot of superhero stories that Spider-Man could be perfect for -- reformed super-villains who still keep their eccentric costumes and powers... who don't become heroes exactly, but ... kinda like what ASM has been doing with J Jonah Jameson, I guess.

It's a fun way to keep around the classics + have growth + always maintain the possibility that they could go bad again when needed.

Spider-Man does get new villains all the time. They just don’t have the kind of staying power that the Lee-Ditko ones do. (The same could be be said about every superhero, but let’s focus on Spider-Man.) What’s worse is that I don’t actually think that the L-D villains are better. Just older with a heavy dose of nostalgia.

Mister Negative was a breath of fresh air in the Spider-Man(PS4) game, and even then he gets supplanted by the older villains.

Spider-Man’s rogues gallery is much much bigger than people actually remember. Most of the 80’s and 90’s villains get overlooked which is disappointing because they actually have a lot of potential.