"HEX Be a Lady!" Scarlet Witch/Wanda Maximoff Appreciation 2021

[Wiccan]

I honestly don't know what the right term would be for Wanda was going threw, I honestly take it as what the writers gave us in the story as a Wave that washed over you and evertime you try to get up to fix yourself and make yourself better it pushes you down again pushing you down into this darkest of dark places where the world becomes more like a nightmare then anything else.

I don't think Wanda in that case by how the story and what the story gave us was in her right mind or persection and moments when she seem to almost comeout of it the events in the hex brought her back into that state, honestly if Wanda was Sane and 100% clear minded the events of climbing she did in episode 8 and then in 9 would have never been nessary and she would have then never let anyone go or gotten rid of her family cause of it.

The story showed she got broken down to her lowest, in a state of mental pain that was effect the world that suprised her in ways she did not know like when she was shock, we have to remember, she was litteral SHOCK by how the citizens of Westviews where not ok but were in pain and Wanda was shocked by that. If she was in her right mind, knew all that was going on she never would have the versital reaction or do what she did by the end of episode 9 and give up all she did and let the citizens go.

By Again most of the reviews and videos I have seen on the subject of the show and these topics this is what most fans have responsed to as well, that she went threw something aweful, it mentally effected her awefully and when she finally in episode 8-9 crawled up out of it she took the hard truth and fixed it, that is how it came across to me and it seem to many I have seen reviews of the show for.

When I say she was "in her right mind" I mean that she wasn't acting due to some kind of delusion, schizophrenia, psychosis or anything like that. She hadn't really "lost it" as you'd say. Her "breakdown" is really just that moment when she falls down and creates the hex, not a state that she's in for a long time.

There's "denial" as in you not wanting to acknowledge something and trying to justify things in your head, which is something that everyone does to an extent without needing to have a mental illness, and literally believing things that are completely out of touch with reality. Wanda isn't like that on the show, she realizes after a while that her world is fabricated, but she's just not willing to let go.

It was depicting her as depressed for the whole show basically so yeah it was covering that aspect. And that her sadness was so great that it was impacting the hex.

Idk. They really emphasize that grief is really the issue. Monica says it's what she could feel through her power. They keep relating her to Monica, who says on the finale that she thinks she'd do the same if she had Wanda's reality altering powers. So I don't feel like they really establish her as having diagnosed depression as much as just being currently depressed? I mean, I guess she could have depression considering all she went through. But on all the other times she was able to pull through cause she still had someone to lean on, and now she feels really alone.

Either way I feel like the point was to show her suffering as something relatable, and that in her position, we the audience could end up doing something similar. It's different from how the comics single her out as being particularly unstable, mentally weak and downright insane. The show never villanizes or patronizes her for what she's feeling, but rather does its most to have the audience empathize with it. And I think that's a much bigger difference than just "She wasn't a plot device".

[GenericUsername]

When I say she was "in her right mind" I mean that she wasn't acting due to some kind of delusion, schizophrenia, psychosis or anything like that. And her "breakdown" is really just that moment when she falls down and creates the hex, not a state that she's in for a long time.

There's "denial" as in you not wanting to acknowledge something and trying to justify things in your head, which is something that everyone does to an extent without needing to have a mental illness, and literally believing things that are completely out of touch with reality. Wanda isn't like that on the show, she realizes after a while that her world is fabricated, but she's just not willing to let go.




Idk. They really emphasize that grief is really the issue. Monica says it's what she could feel through her power. They keep relating her to Monica, who says on the finale that she thinks she'd do the same if she had Wanda's reality altering powers. So I don't feel like they really establish her as having diagnosed depression as much as just being currently depressed? I mean, I guess she could have depression considering all she went through. But on all the other times she was able to pull through cause she still had someone to lean on, and now she feels really alone.

Either way I feel like the point was to show her suffering as something relatable, and that in her position, we the audience could end up doing something similar. It's different from how the comics single her out as being particularly unstable, mentally weak and downright insane. The show never villanizes or patronizes her for what she's feeling, but rather does its most to have the audience empathize with it. And I think that's a much bigger difference than just "She wasn't a plot device".

That makes it worse that they have Monica go through grief and able to handle it but Wanda completely falls apart, which makes the powers fall apart too.

There is a difference for sure between having depression and going through a depression. But this is a character already established in comics as having depression, so it's not a logical leap by any means.

Showing suffering and grief is not the problem. It's the powers being impacted by such and then her being depicted as not caring about what happened until very late. And having her do something awful because of it. Something so unforgiving.

The show does do the bare minimum of humanizing her grief. But it's depiction of depression. Even the state of being depressed is what's off.

[Wiccan]

That makes it worse that they have Monica go through grief and able to handle it but Wanda completely falls apart, which makes the powers fall apart too.

There is a difference for sure between having depression and going through a depression. But this is a character already established in comics as having depression, so it's not a logical leap by any means.

Showing suffering and grief is not the problem. It's the powers being impacted by such and then her being depicted as not caring about what happened until very late. And having her do something awful because of it. Something so unforgiving.

The show does do the bare minimum of humanizing her grief. But it's depiction of depression. Even the state of being depressed is what's off.

Her having depression in the comics doesn't mean she does in the MCU. They kept things kinda vague and open for interpretation.

Well she was able to handle it the other times. When she lost her parents and then Pietro. But when her parents died she could rely on Pietro, then when Pietro died on Vision, then Vision dies too and she's alone and at that point she can't deal with having to lose and lose again and again (which isn't the case for Monica). Going to Westview is especially painful because there she sees the future she could've had with Vision, which is why her breakdown results in her creating that life.

I'm also not sure if you can say Monica is just fine. She tries to act like she is when she goes back to work and etc, but I'd say that's not really that healthy. And then she gets sort of obsessed with this, and, not with wanting to help the citizens that are suffering, but with helping Wanda. She went through the same thing as them but she doesn't talk about how she can't let them go through that, she keeps talking about how she's not gonna stop until she can help Wanda. To me that feels like she almost sees dealing with Wanda as a way to work through her own emotions. That if Wanda can heal, then she can too. But if Wanda keeps getting devoured by her pain, then that means something for her as well.

I don't have a diagnosis so I can't say for sure if that really has some weight, but I often feel like I have depression and I found Wanda relatable. That sort of feeling of indigation of why things keep being like that for you, that it doesn't matter how much you try to be strong it keeps bringing you down, of thinking and thinking about what could've been different. Then that sort of acceptance at the end that is mostly just an exhaustion from all the intense emotions, and then you have to just keep going...

I'm not sure about the whole "selfishness" part, but even that I get to an extent. After a while, you just have that feeling of "Why can't I be happy?" "Why is that I just have to keep doing what's best for everyone else but I don't get to have anything?". I think this is likely what Schaeffer means when she talks about Wanda being selfish.

I feel like looking at the show in just a "Did they portray Wanda in the best most non-problematic and "she's 100% a completely good person and hero who does everything right" way instead of as something you can emotionally connect with, is a disservice and a waste of time. And I don't mean that just for you, but because I keep seeing dudebros being like "Well she tortured the whole town, she's not a hero, why isn't she being ~held accountable~?" and it pisses me off because it's baffling to me that they can't empathize with her. It's like they're watching in such a cold pragmatic way.

[GenericUsername]

Her having depression in the comics doesn't mean she does in the MCU. They kept things kinda vague and open for interpretation.

Well she was able to handle it the other times. When she lost her parents and then Pietro. But when her parents died she could rely on Pietro, then when Pietro died on Vision, then Vision dies too and she's alone and at that point she can't deal with having to lose and lose again and again (which isn't the case for Monica). Going to Westview is especially painful because there she sees the future she could've had with Vision, which is why her breakdown results in her creating that life.

I'm also not sure if you can say Monica is just fine. She tries to act like she is when she goes back to work and etc, but I'd say that's not really that healthy. And then she gets sort of obsessed with this, and, not with wanting to help the citizens that are suffering, but with helping Wanda. She went through the same thing as them but she doesn't talk about how she can't let them go through that, she keeps talking about how she's not gonna stop until she can help Wanda. To me that feels like she almost sees dealing with Wanda as a way to work through her own emotions. That if Wanda can heal, then she can too. But if Wanda keeps getting devoured by her pain, then that means something for her as well.

I don't have a diagnosis so I can't say for sure if that really has some weight, but I often feel like I have depression and I found Wanda relatable. That sort of feeling of indigation of why things keep being like that for you, that it doesn't matter how much you try to be strong it keeps bringing you down, of thinking and thinking about what could've been different. Then that sort of acceptance at the end that is mostly just an exhaustion from all the intense emotions, and then you have to just keep going...

I'm not sure about the whole "selfishness" part, but even that I get to an extent. After a while, you just have that feeling of "Why can't I be happy?" "Why is that I just have to keep doing what's best for everyone else but I don't get to have anything?". I think this is likely what Schaeffer means when she talks about Wanda being selfish.

I feel like looking at the show in just a "Did they portray Wanda in the best most non-problematic and "she's 100% a completely good person and hero who does everything right" way instead of as something you can emotionally connect with, is a disservice and a waste of time. And I don't mean that just for you, but because I keep seeing dudebros being like "Well she tortured the whole town, she's not a hero, why isn't she being ~held accountable~?" and it pisses me off because it's baffling to me that they can't empathize with her. It's like they're watching in such a cold pragmatic way.

They did not keep it vague and open. They had a whole episode dedicated to her depression complete with pill bottle on the stand. So open is not what they did. Whether she has it long term or not isn't even the issue, because what they depicted was not accurate.

Yes, I know she lost her whole family. My grandmother did too and managed to not hold a whole community hostage.

Monica is in control. Despite everything that's she's feeling. She also doesn't end up holding a whole town hostage.

I have panic disorder with depression. And it's absolutely fine to find Wanda relatable. My concern is not with fans finding her relatable. It's just the accuracy of depression itself.

She didn't just have the why can't she be happy for once. That could be just covered by Vision being brought back and having kids with him. The community should have been fake. And the powers should not have been impacted by emotions.

It's again fine to find empathy with Wanda. But I find it completely fine for me to assess how Hollywood handles depression.

There are positive takes I have about the show, but that's not the subject at hand.

I was just saying I hope they keep their promises to handle her well.

[Wiccan]

They did not keep it vague and open. They had a whole episode dedicated to her depression complete with pill bottle on the stand. So open is not what they did. Whether she has it long term or not isn't even the issue, because what they depicted was not accurate.

Yes, I know she lost her whole family. My grandmother did too and managed to not hold a whole community hostage.

Monica is in control. Despite everything that's she's feeling. She also doesn't end up holding a whole town hostage.

I have panic disorder with depression. And it's absolutely fine to find Wanda relatable. My concern is not with fans finding her relatable. It's just the accuracy of depression itself.

She didn't just have the why can't she be happy for once. That could be just covered by Vision being brought back and having kids with him. The community should have been fake. And the powers should not have been impacted by emotions.

It's again fine to find empathy with Wanda. But I find it completely fine for me to assess how Hollywood handles depression.

There are positive takes I have about the show, but that's not the subject at hand.

I was just saying I hope they keep their promises to handle her well.

Well, I thought the main point was about whether she had depression or was depressed. Why you think that was inaccurate is another thing, so you can explain if you want, or not...

Monica, from her own point of view, would have done the same thing. She didn't have reality altering powers. Which, I know goes under the "She can't control her powers!!!" thing, but I think the difference is that in the show she can't control her powers in that moment. After she realized what had happened she could've just undone it at any time. Her mental state isn't always affecting her powers, except in that moment where she subconsciously desires a life in Westview with Vision like she feels she should've had. Disassembled, in that horrible splash page with Doctor Strange's explanation, tries to make the point that Wanda just can't control her powers. Like in general. They try to reframe her whole history as "look how it has always been like this", as a way to say that she's too weak. The show uses her trauma as a way to rationalize why she would have so much pain that she would end up breaking down like that. Disassembled uses her trauma as a way to say that for someone who went through all that, she couldn't possibly not lose control.

Again, I feel like the show tried to go with the idea that, if you were in that situation and had that power, you could end up doing that too. While in Disassembled it's more about how Wanda specifically having those powers is the problem. They single her out as unstable and incapable, which is one of the things I hate the most about it, so while some might feel like it's bad and superficial and "they're excusing her" to have the narrative push her actions as understandable, I really appreciated it.

In the show there's also the point that she doesn't understand her powers completely. She didn't know it was magic, that it was chaos magic, that she was a witch. While in the comics, she knew full well what her powers were and how they worked, and they actually have to say it's something made-up to make sense of what's going on. At the end of the show she says that she doesn't understand it but she will. And she goes on to do just that. While on the comics the only way for her to deal with what happened is to lose her memory and not even know she has powers at all.

I get that the town could've been fake instead of her actively harming people... But I guess a big part of that is that they needed for SWORD to be involved and to have the goal of saving the civillians. Just Wanda on her own having kids and Vision without bothering anyone doesn't lend to much of a plot. There would be no one trying to stopping her, and, why should there be? In the comics she has to be stopped because she does things like killing a bunch of Avengers and House of M and No More Mutants. They don't do any of that in the show, so the citizens being tortured is the way to bring conflict to the narrative.

[Frontier]

I get what they were going for, but the Monica line was still kind of dumb.

I also kind of get what the people of Westview were there for but it ended up mostly making Wanda look bad by the end of it.

[GenericUsername]

Well, I thought the main point was about whether she had depression or was depressed. Why you think that was inaccurate is another thing, so you can explain if you want, or not...

Monica, from her own point of view, would have done the same thing. She didn't have reality altering powers. Which, I know goes under the "She can't control her powers!!!" thing, but I think the difference is that in the show she can't control her powers in that moment. After she realized what had happened she could've just undone it at any time. Her mental state isn't always affecting her powers, except in that moment where she subconsciously desires a life in Westview with Vision like she feels she should've had. Disassembled, in that horrible splash page with Doctor Strange's explanation, tries to make the point that Wanda just can't control her powers. Like in general. They try to reframe her whole history as "look how it has always been like this", as a way to say that she's too weak. The show uses her trauma as a way to rationalize why she would have so much pain that she would end up breaking down like that. Disassembled uses her trauma as a way to say that for someone who went through all that, she couldn't possibly not lose control.

Again, I feel like the show tried to go with the idea that, if you were in that situation and had that power, you could end up doing that too. While in Disassembled it's more about how Wanda specifically having those powers is the problem. They single her out as unstable and incapable, which is one of the things I hate the most about it, so while some might feel like it's bad and superficial and "they're excusing her" to have the narrative push her actions as understandable, I really appreciated it.

In the show there's also the point that she doesn't understand her powers completely. She didn't know it was magic, that it was chaos magic, that she was a witch. While in the comics, she knew full well what her powers were and how they worked, and they actually have to say it's something made-up to make sense of what's going on. At the end of the show she says that she doesn't understand it but she will. And she goes on to do just that. While on the comics the only way for her to deal with what happened is to lose her memory and not even know she has powers at all.

I get that the town could've been fake instead of her actively harming people... But I guess a big part of that is that they needed for SWORD to be involved and to have the goal of saving the civillians. Just Wanda on her own having kids and Vision without bothering anyone doesn't lend to much of a plot. There would be no one trying to stopping her, and, why should there be? In the comics she has to be stopped because she does things like killing a bunch of Avengers and House of M and No More Mutants. They don't do any of that in the show, so the citizens being tortured is the way to bring conflict to the narrative.

My previous posts were all about how depression wasn't accurately portrayed....

That moment with Monica was very weird. Especially considering she has a large amount of cosmic power (maybe she's just not aware). But it felt forced too.

That's the whole problem with associating power with depression though. Because these things are not linked. Even evil acts that are in my power, I'm not compelled to do, just to make myself happy. Most people who are depressed are more self punishing than into punishing others to make themselves happy. And Wanda was ok with it from the point that Vision made it clear to her during their argument, up until the end. When finally confronted with it. So no, I cannot see myself holding a whole town hostage to bring back my dead family members for my own happiness. Even though I'm often very depressed. I'm at worse, just very pessimistic and maybe somewhat sardonic.

Not discussing really what Wanda understood, but what writers understand about depression.

The SWORD involvement was also weird, because it feels like it's only purpose of being there is so that they can be in something else in the future. Conflict in the narrative can involve actual villains. I know that seems alien to most modern writers.

[Wiccan]

I get what they were going for, but the Monica line was still kind of dumb.

I also kind of get what the people of Westview were there for but it ended up mostly making Wanda look bad by the end of it.

I think that when judging that line, people are underestimating how big of a deal it is to basically sacrifice your children and husband. I guess because everyone thinks they just "weren't real", when that was actually never what the show went for. Agatha says that the reason they have to die is because Wanda ended up making their existence tied to the existence of the hex. But they're real flesh and blood (Vibranium for Vis) people.

Another criticism kinda related to that, is the whole "Why doesn't she just keep the hex around her house?", when Agatha also explained that "Once a spell is cast, it can never be changed". So it's all or nothing.

My previous posts were all about how depression wasn't accurately portrayed....

That moment with Monica was very weird. Especially considering she has a large amount of cosmic power (maybe she's just not aware). But it felt forced too.

That's the whole problem with associating power with depression though. Because these things are not linked. Even evil acts that are in my power, I'm not compelled to do, just to make myself happy. Most people who are depressed are more self punishing than into punishing others to make themselves happy. And Wanda was ok with it from the point that Vision made it clear to her during their argument, up until the end. When finally confronted with it. So no, I cannot see myself holding a whole town hostage to bring back my dead family members for my own happiness. Even though I'm often very depressed. I'm at worse, just very pessimistic and maybe somewhat sardonic.

Not discussing really what Wanda understood, but what writers understand about depression..

Wanda wasn't compelled to hurt people either. It was a side effect. And the loss of Monica's mother happened before she got her powers, and even after she got them, she can't use them to somehow bring back people? Her powerset doesn't enable anything like that...

[GenericUsername]

I think that when judging that line, people are underestimating how big of a deal it is to basically sacrifice your children and husband. I guess because everyone thinks they just "weren't real", when that was actually never what the show went for. Agatha says that the reason they have to die is because Wanda ended up making their existence tied to the existence of the hex. But they're real flesh and blood (Vibranium for Vis) people.

Another criticism kinda related to that, is the whole "Why doesn't she just keep the hex around her house?", when Agatha also explained that "Once a spell is cast, it can never be changed". So it's all or nothing.



Wanda wasn't compelled to hurt people either. It was a side effect. And the loss of Monica's mother happened before she got her powers, and even after she got them, she can't use them to somehow bring back people? Her powerset doesn't enable anything like that...

They had Wanda aware she was doing it from the time she argued with Vision and still go through with it. That is what writers did. She created the world where Vision was still alive, and did create the boys.

[Wiccan]

They had Wanda aware she was doing it from the time she argued with Vision and still go through with it. That is what writers did. She created the world where Vision was still alive, and did create the boys.

Even then she was in denial that they were actually suffering. When Dottie starts talking about her daughter she says Agatha is making her to say that, then when they say how they feel she tries to say that they actually felt safe and at peace.

Not saying that her morality wasn't dubious, but she is not literally deciding to hurt people. As soon as she actually sees them suffering she breaks down.

[GenericUsername]

Even then she was in denial that they were actually suffering. When Dottie starts talking about her daughter she says Agatha is making her to say that, then when they say how they feel she tries to say that they actually felt safe and at peace.

Yes, and with depression, I'm not unaware of what I'm doing. Or what's going on. There are mental illnesses of course where that is the case. My uncle has a severe form of schizophrenia and especially with some meds, that can happen. It doesn't happen with depression. Sadness and an inability to feel motivated can happen. Not being unaware of holding people hostage despite someone telling you that you are, just because you are in mourning.

[Wiccan]

Yes, and with depression, I'm not unaware of what I'm doing. Or what's going on. There are mental illnesses of course where that is the case. My uncle has a severe form of schizophrenia and especially with some meds, that can happen. It doesn't happen with depression. Sadness and an inability to feel motivated can happen. Not being unaware of holding people hostage despite someone telling you that you are, just because you are in mourning.

I don't think that is really comparable. Wanda wasn't aware of the side effects of her spell. She didn't actually feel herself controlling them, it just happened automatically inside the hex until Vision or Agatha stopped it.

Whether she believed Vision when she told him Norm was at pain doesn't really have such a direct link to mental illness. She was told something and thought "No, I don't think that's really how it is..." because that fitted her narrative better. That's a "normal" thing anyone can do. It's why we have flat-earthers and climate change deniers. Would you say all those people have schizophrenia?

(And the earth being round and climate change existing are things we have evidence of, which Vision didn't provide any when arguing with her. After she was actually shown proof she somewhat quickly accepted the truth and agreed to let them go)

[GenericUsername]

I don't think that is really comparable. Wanda wasn't aware of the side effects of her spell. She didn't actually feel herself controlling them, it just happened automatically inside the hex until Vision or Agatha stopped it.

Whether she believed Vision when she told him Norm was at pain doesn't really have such a direct link to mental illness. She was told something and thought "No, I don't think that's really how it is..." because it fitted her narrative better. That's a "normal" thing anyone can do. It's why we have flat-earthers and climate change deniers. Would you say all those people have schizophrenia?

What isn't comparable? I'm talking about what depression is and that what state they had her in isn't accurate to it.

I'm not here to defend nor accuse Wanda.

I'm talking about how writers chose to depict grief and depression and how it's not really accurate.

It of course doesn't have a direct link to mental illness, not from what they did portray. But they were trying for depression which they did not get accurate.

I'm saying that doing stuff you aren't aware of can be more linked to other mental illnesses than depression. They chose depression from grief. And what they showed wasn't accurate to that.

[Wiccan]

What isn't comparable? I'm talking about what depression is and that what state they had her in isn't accurate to it.

I'm not here to defend nor accuse Wanda.

I'm talking about how writers chose to depict grief and depression and how it's not really accurate.

It of course doesn't have a direct link to mental illness, not from what they did portray. But they were trying for depression which they did not get accurate.

I'm saying that doing stuff you aren't aware of can be more linked to other mental illnesses than depression. They chose depression from grief. And what they showed wasn't accurate to that.

I mean that Wanda being in denial about the citizens being in pain isn't comparable to effects of schizophrenia (at least from what I know of those, could be wrong), and it's rather more comparable to people simply not wanting to believe things that they don't want to be true. Like I tried to argue a while back, there is a difference between being "delusional" and "in denial" in a "normal" way where you basically just think something is a way when it isn't, vs suffering from actual delusions as a symptom of mental illness. Wanda falls more into the former than the latter.

You're going with the idea that literally every thing she did on the show was about depression, but that's not how it felt like to me. It's all losely based on the stages of grief and depression would only be the second to last state, which is why it only becomes a focus on episode 7. She was depressed before as shown on episode 8, but after she creates the hex, her fake life is enough to make her feel better for a while.

[GenericUsername]

I mean that Wanda being in denial about the citizens being in pain isn't comparable to effects of schizophrenia (at least from what I know of those), and it's rather more comparable to people not wanting to believe things that they don't want to be true. Like I tried to argue a while back, there is a difference between being "delusional" and "in denial" in a "normal" way where you basically just think something is a way when it isn't, vs actually suffering from actual delusions as a symptom of mentall illness. Wanda falls more into the former than the latter.

You're going with the idea that literally every thing she did on the show was about depression, but that's not how it felt like to me. It's all losely based on the stages of grief and depression would only be the second to last state, which is why it is only a focus on episode 7. She was depressed before as shown on episode 8, but after she creates the hex, her fake life is enough to make her feel better for a while.

They could be just making her stubborn but they also chose to make the whole show about the effect of grief which the common side effect is depression and then talk about all that in interviews. So the link is the only thing that can be surmised. I'm not the first person with depression to get that feeling from that from watching the show. They also made it so the hex is impacted by her emotions.