All purpose news and politics thread part VI: This Is Not The Time For Posing

[JackDaw]

You’re acting like I said everyone. I just said people. It’s true in many senses, at least in my experience. Why does that statement bother you so much? So what if you’ve never felt that way? Doesn’t negate my point or yours in any way

It doesn’t bother me.

Two aspects of your original statement puzzled me so I thought it worthwhile putting a challenge in.

The first was use of word “terrified” in regard to some one having an opinion challenged. I have never ever seen that. I have occasionally seen anger, often defensiveness, very often indifference. But never terror.

The second was your notion that only old white men exhibit a closed mind. Having worked with many people from many different backgrounds...I think it’s simply a human characteristic rather than just displayed by old white men.

[MiddleMan]

heck, Im watching my local news and ANOTHER NYPD officer has been charged with assault for shoving a peaceful protester to the ground (its on video) and other officers just walking by leaving her on the ground

[BeastieRunner]

I can understand his frustration though. In my 20s I wasn't the safest driver so I got pulled over a lot and I didn't have a negative encounter. I think there are far more good cops than bad cops but the latter are the ones that are receive press.

Why do police need to use choke holds in the first place?

[Elmo]

It doesn’t bother me.

Two aspects of your original statement puzzled me so I thought it worthwhile putting a challenge in.

The first was use of word “terrified” in regard to some one having an opinion challenged. I have never ever seen that. I have occasionally seen anger, often defensiveness, very often indifference. But never terror.

The second was your notion that only old white men exhibit a closed mind. Having worked with many people from many different backgrounds...I think it’s simply a human characteristic rather than just displayed by old white men.

I believe what I believe dude. again, I never said "all people" or "everyone" I just said people, as in some people that I have encountered or witnessed in some fashion. I'm not saying anything new when I talk about how fear plays a huge part in this rhetoric. Just like I'm not saying anything new when I say that behavior is notably typical in older white men. But I never once said only white men exhibit that behavior. this is based on what I have personally encountered and what I've witnessed either on or offline, but I am in no way trying to invalidate your experiences.

[Elmo]

I can understand his frustration though. In my 20s I wasn't the safest driver so I got pulled over a lot and I didn't have a negative encounter. I think there are far more good cops than bad cops but the latter are the ones that are receive press.

that's anecdotal. the facts are there. 2019 alone had the most cases of unjust excessive force and officers firing deadly weapons in the history of the NYPD.

[JackDaw]

Im black, if I get stubborn I get labeled an angry black man

I live in Connecticut, old white people here are the absolute worst - especially in the rural counties

a small farm town had a BLM demonstration that was entirely peaceful and the lone disturbances were old white people screaming about "Go Back To Africa"

Profound sympathy.

I tend to forget just how extreme and open the racism is in the US (NB...I am not pretending that racism is not widespread in the UK..it’s just not as openly hostile).

Maybe Elmo is right..such strong hostility might be rooted in fear. I’ll ponder the matter.

[Kirby101]

I am sure Mets can come along and tell us why this isn't voter suppression.

Extremely Long Lines At Georgia Polling Places Lead To Claims Of Voter Suppression

[BeastieRunner]

I am sure Mets can come along and tell us why this isn't voter suppression.

Extremely Long Lines At Georgia Polling Places Lead To Claims Of Voter Suppression

It's a strong argument for mail in ballots.

[Kirby101]

It's a strong argument for mail in ballots.

From the article:

In April, the state’s Republican House leader, David Ralston, publicly denounced the Republican secretary of state for sending absentee ballots to registered voters ahead of Tuesday’s primary, which was postponed from its original May 19 date due to the pandemic. Ralston claimed mail-in voting is ”devastating to Republicans.”

They aren't even hiding that it is voter suppression. Kemp stole the Governorship from Stacy Abrams.

[Mister Mets]

It doesn’t bother me.

Two aspects of your original statement puzzled me so I thought it worthwhile putting a challenge in.

The first was use of word “terrified” in regard to some one having an opinion challenged. I have never ever seen that. I have occasionally seen anger, often defensiveness, very often indifference. But never terror.

The second was your notion that only old white men exhibit a closed mind. Having worked with many people from many different backgrounds...I think it’s simply a human characteristic rather than just displayed by old white men.

To be fair, he said old men and white people. If he's correct, that is still an overwhelming majority of the American electorate.

That said, I do wonder if people on the left are consistently okay with being challenged from the center or the right. The day before yesterday, an editor from the New York Times resigned after a backlash over an op-ed by Tom Cotton.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/07/media...gns/index.html

Political arguments are about high stakes issues, and some people aren't comfortable with having civil discussions with someone they say as furthering views that will kill people and prevent others from reaching their full potential (which would be the case for anyone on the wrong side of a major political issue.)

[Mister Mets]

From the article:


They aren't even hiding that it is voter suppression. Kemp stole the Governorship from Stacy Abrams.

As your quote shows, the Republican secretary of state sent voters mail-in ballots.

I am sure Mets can come along and tell us why this isn't voter suppression.

Extremely Long Lines At Georgia Polling Places Lead To Claims Of Voter Suppression

If anyone is deliberately slowing down voters, that would be voter suppression. The article doesn't prove this. It just states the speculation.

Administrative problems aren't necessarily a conspiracy.

People need to get over it and start researching. It's been the world we live in for the last 15-20 years. Get off your ass and do the leg work. Learn. Listen. Act. People aren't dumb.

If the messaging is flawed, they're not going to know that they've got research to do. They'll take the statements at face value.

[skyvolt2000]

Profound sympathy.

I tend to forget just how extreme and open the racism is in the US (NB...I am not pretending that racism is not widespread in the UK..it’s just not as openly hostile).

Maybe Elmo is right..such strong hostility might be rooted in fear. I’ll ponder the matter.

Well part of the issue is for most white folks-the only image of a black person they see is via the media.

So if all you watched growing up was say Cops, NYPD Blue, 90210, Friends, 7th Heaven and other majority white shows that had limited black interaction outside of law enforcement, music and sports. Along with the negative spin Fox news can toss out among others.

What happens when you head to college in say HOUSTON. You decide to attend Rice University or University of Houston.

A HBCU (Black college) Prairie View A&M is across the street from Rice and 21 minutes from UH. Houston has a 25% Black population.

If you haven't been around black folks-hello FEAR.

I dealt with that my last year of college. We got Freshman who never saw black folks in person. Most were from TEXAS. My own state has cities were black folks don't exist.

[BeastieRunner]

If the messaging is flawed, they're not going to know that they've got research to do. They'll take the statements at face value.

Black Lives Matter and Defund/Reform The Police (I've seen it both ways but defund appears to be showing up more) are the statements in play here.

Taken at face value ... why are they inherently negative to you and others that think like you? Are you willing to just dismiss the whole movement out of hand and minimize it because you disagree with the clarity of the slogan? Isn't that why we are were we are right now?

What is the commonality?

Instead of focusing on what's bad, why not what's right? Most other cultures do that. The tendency to identify what is wrong with little ability to identify, name, and appreciate what is right is a hallmark of white supremacy culture. The itch for perfectionism. It's ingrained in a lot of us white folk. It's not hard to overcome it. I struggle with this the most personally. You did acknowledge that you understood and appreciated "Defund The Police" better after reading more about it.

Why is your focus on (I'm paraphrasing here) "great message, bad wording?" Why not just figuratively march in solidarity and fight with your fellow man against systemic oppression? Why not go out there and fight along side us and make it better?

You can be an agent of change and tell your friends that take these at face value what they really mean.

In this day and age, people have to be held accountable for learning about well, pretty much everything. Our culture is at a breaking point and the time for being comfortable is over. People need to get over it and get used to being uncomfortable. We have an opportunity to grow as a country. I hope you are along for the ride.

[BeastieRunner]

Well part of the issue is for most white folks-the only image of a black person they see is via the media.

So if all you watched growing up was say Cops, NYPD Blue, 90210, Friends, 7th Heaven and other majority white shows that had limited black interaction outside of law enforcement, music and sports. Along with the negative spin Fox news can toss out among others.

What happens when you head to college in say HOUSTON. You decide to attend Rice University or University of Houston.

A HBCU (Black college) Prairie View A&M is across the street from Rice and 21 minutes from UH. Houston has a 25% Black population.

If you haven't been around black folks-hello FEAR.

I dealt with that my last year of college. We got Freshman who never saw black folks in person. Most were from TEXAS. My own state has cities were black folks don't exist.

^^^^ So much this. ^^^^

I was just talking with a bunch of people about this today.

I had a black educator ask me, "What's it like working with white kids?" They don't have any white kids at their school.

We had several white educators asking what it's like having latinx or black kids in classes because they don't have anybody that is non-white in their district (not just a single school).

There are kids that grow up with literally the only white persons in their lives being their teacher and the officer that pulled their daddy over.

There are kids in America that have never seen a black person.

We have kids in America that have never heard another language spoken on a bus or on the street or in the store.

We have large segment of children in America where their only view of another race is via media.

I see you dude and feel your message. It's real.

[Mister Mets]

Black Lives Matter and Defund/Reform The Police (I've seen it both ways but defund appears to be showing up more) are the statements in play here.

Taken at face value ... why are they inherently negative to you and others that think like you? Are you willing to just dismiss the whole movement out of hand and minimize it because you disagree with the clarity of the slogan? Isn't that why we are were we are right now?

What is the commonality?

Instead of focusing on what's bad, why not what's right? Most other cultures do that. The tendency to identify what is wrong with little ability to identify, name, and appreciate what is right is a hallmark of white supremacy culture. The itch for perfectionism. It's ingrained in a lot of us white folk. It's not hard to overcome it. I struggle with this the most personally. You did acknowledge that you understood and appreciated "Defund The Police" better after reading more about it.

Why is your focus on (I'm paraphrasing here) "great message, bad wording?" Why not just figuratively march in solidarity and fight with your fellow man against systemic oppression? Why not go out there and fight along side us and make it better?

You can be an agent of change and tell your friends that take these at face value what they really mean.

In this day and age, people have to be held accountable for learning about well, pretty much everything. Our culture is at a breaking point and the time for being comfortable is over. People need to get over it and get used to being uncomfortable. We have an opportunity to grow as a country. I hope you are along for the ride.

I think you're conflating the question of my comments about the messaging with what I think of the entire movement. A problem in a lot of political discourse is that views on narrow questions are seen as proxies for larger topics, when that shouldn't always be the case.

I can understand the need for various reforms, and that there is a diversity of views among the protesters and critics of the police. Some people want to dismantle the police, and replace them with something different. Others want serious reforms, and a reconsideration of whether particular situations merit the intervention of people trained to deal with situations militaristically and swiftly.

I can also get that many people saying defund the police aren't literally saying that we should eliminate all police funding, but it does sound like it. And there are some people in the movement with more extreme views, so their policy arguments have to be grappled with as well.

If a statement can't be taken at face value, it's also a golden opportunity for people on the other side of a topic to define your side.