Next CW superhero crossover to introduce Batwoman

[jbmasta]

Not until we get a Themyscira show .

Would not put it past a TV executive. There are no barrel bottoms deep enough where DC properties are concerned. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a New Gods show, or an early Green Lantern Corps (as in the Guardians hadn't grasped the idiot ball yet early). Heck, a show around a Wayne ancestor or Haley's Circus and the Court of Owls is entirely possible.

[lemonpeace]

West Point cadets are active duty military. Think about it: if not, what was she discharged from?

And to nitpick, Kate probably would not have been dishonorably discharged, since that requires a court-martial and is only handed down for the most serious offenses.



Not in terms of being a commissioned officer, she hasn't. But she still has a soldier's mindset, and thinks of herself and her crimefighting service in those terms. That's what I'm talking about.

I think your not seeing his point of view. A Cadet by definition can't be a soldier because as a cadet you are literally training to be a soldier. I've been recruited (ultimately opted out) and my step brother is currently stationed in California. An "active duty" cadet just means you are full-time enrolled in the military academy as a cadet. West Point is in New York, she was training in New York when was discharged. She never was deployed. In the most technical sense of the word she isn't a soldier. However, as Batwoman she's seen plenty of military i guess scale (for lack of a better word) combat so an argument could be made that she is a soldier in that sense. I think he just wish they clarified that she was never an actual soldier. Which I get because they tend to draw from that "she's a soldier" well a lot with Batwoman.

[Armor of God]

Would not put it past a TV executive. There are no barrel bottoms deep enough where DC properties are concerned. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a New Gods show, or an early Green Lantern Corps (as in the Guardians hadn't grasped the idiot ball yet early). Heck, a show around a Wayne ancestor or Haley's Circus and the Court of Owls is entirely possible.

They'd have to be smoking some strong stuff to create shows like that. Its fascinating really, they dont really allow Batman on tv because he's a film property which they dont wish to dilute but who would care about Court of Owls or Haly without the Batman connections? its the same thing about Gotham. It failed to develop in to a proper show about how cops deal with crimes that Batman doesn't or how they operated in an era where there was no Batman or his villains. They just turned in to a Batman show without Batman where Joker couldn't be named Joker lol. Short of Two-Face, Harley and Bane Gotham has utilized every major villain you can think of. The brand dilution has already occurred and with DCEUs less than stellar reputation particularly when it comes to Joker and Batman fans even wonder what exactly they're even trying to preserve because those were far more damaging to the brand.

WB needs to follow the Marvel formula, they should set their films and shows in the same verse. Make high quality tv shows featuring top notch talent and production values. Divide the characters between tv and film, do some actual long term planning. These half assed concepts that they keep throwing at CW and Berlanti need to end. Time to move on.

[Agent Z]

They'd have to be smoking some strong stuff to create shows like that. Its fascinating really, they dont really allow Batman on tv because he's a film property which they dont wish to dilute but who would care about Court of Owls or Haly without the Batman connections? its the same thing about Gotham. It failed to develop in to a proper show about how cops deal with crimes that Batman doesn't or how they operated in an era where there was no Batman or his villains. They just turned in to a Batman show without Batman where Joker couldn't be named Joker lol. Short of Two-Face, Harley and Bane Gotham has utilized every major villain you can think of. The brand dilution has already occurred and with DCEUs less than stellar reputation particularly when it comes to Joker and Batman fans even wonder what exactly they're even trying to preserve because those were far more damaging to the brand.

WB needs to follow the Marvel formula, they should set their films and shows in the same verse. Make high quality tv shows featuring top notch talent and production values. Divide the characters between tv and film, do some actual long term planning. These half assed concepts that they keep throwing at CW and Berlanti need to end. Time to move on.

No they don't. Black Lightning does not exist in the same universe as Supergirl or Arrow and does just fine. The Nolan movies did not need to be in the same universe as any of the Superman movies and was better for it. A shared universe is not necessary. Tv shows and movies can and should be able to stand on their own.

[Agent Z]

Would not put it past a TV executive. There are no barrel bottoms deep enough where DC properties are concerned. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a New Gods show, or an early Green Lantern Corps (as in the Guardians hadn't grasped the idiot ball yet early). Heck, a show around a Wayne ancestor or Haley's Circus and the Court of Owls is entirely possible.

A Themyscira show makes the most sense actually given it has it's own history and isn't destroyed in the present like Krypton. Hell we're getting a comic about Themyscira from kelly Sue DeConnick and Phil Jiminez.

[Armor of God]

No they don't. Black Lightning does not exist in the same universe as Supergirl or Arrow and does just fine. The Nolan movies did not need to be in the same universe as any of the Superman movies and was better for it. A shared universe is not necessary. Tv shows and movies can and should be able to stand on their own.

Black Lightning only had one (short) season, you can bet it will go downhill soon and get crossovers with the other shows, its CW/Berlanti tradition. The difference is that WB WANTS a shared universe so the analogy with Nolan doesn't compute because they didn't want one then.

For example, make an outline for a Batman trilogy, select the top 10 villains you want to use. The create the film, introduce Dick and then spin him off in his own film. In the second film get Jason there and give him a tv show set in the same universe but not made by CW/Berlanti and so on. That's how you build a brand, now on the otherhand they're planning a Nightwing film and they're also making a show with Nightwing and then they'll have producers fight over who gets to use what. The heck is that even?

[jbmasta]

They'd have to be smoking some strong stuff to create shows like that. Its fascinating really, they dont really allow Batman on tv because he's a film property which they dont wish to dilute but who would care about Court of Owls or Haly without the Batman connections? its the same thing about Gotham. It failed to develop in to a proper show about how cops deal with crimes that Batman doesn't or how they operated in an era where there was no Batman or his villains. They just turned in to a Batman show without Batman where Joker couldn't be named Joker lol. Short of Two-Face, Harley and Bane Gotham has utilized every major villain you can think of. The brand dilution has already occurred and with DCEUs less than stellar reputation particularly when it comes to Joker and Batman fans even wonder what exactly they're even trying to preserve because those were far more damaging to the brand.

WB needs to follow the Marvel formula, they should set their films and shows in the same verse. Make high quality tv shows featuring top notch talent and production values. Divide the characters between tv and film, do some actual long term planning. These half assed concepts that they keep throwing at CW and Berlanti need to end. Time to move on.

At this point the MCU could very well be considered separate from the TV/Netflix/Hulu shows despite an arc the first season of Agents of SHIELD directly coming from Coulson's fate in the first Avengers film. The movies don't bother to pay them so much as lip service (even when the helicarrier from Age of Ultron was revealed to have been fixed up in a project led by Coulson, the secret nature of which was a subplot in season 2 of Agents of Shield), and Agents of SHIELD has pretty much long since stopped trying to tie into specific MCU events. I haven't watched the Netflix Defenders shows, so I can't say if they reference the films. The MCU has 19 films so far (where very few could be considered filler), citing TV show length doesn't hold much water as an excuse anymore especially with binge watching being increasingly common.

Allowing the DC TV shows to use some characters and storylines from the film properties, that are more suited to longform TV storytelling or aren't considered worth their own movie, would be a better option. Give the bigger, more cinematic storylines to the films where the budget and scope can do them better justice.

[Agent Z]

Black Lightning only had one (short) season, you can bet it will go downhill soon and get crossovers with the other shows, its CW/Berlanti tradition. The difference is that WB WANTS a shared universe so the analogy with Nolan doesn't compute because they didn't want one then.

For example, make an outline for a Batman trilogy, select the top 10 villains you want to use. The create the film, introduce Dick and then spin him off in his own film. In the second film get Jason there and give him a tv show set in the same universe but not made by CW/Berlanti and so on. That's how you build a brand, now on the otherhand they're planning a Nightwing film and they're also making a show with Nightwing and then they'll have producers fight over who gets to use what. The heck is that even?

What WB wants and what audiences want are two different things. Did it ever occur to you that this obsession with trying to catch up to Marvel is what causes problems like the current situation now? Audiences don’t need the shows and movies to be in the same universe. Young Justice, Nolan Trilogy and all their other successful works did just fine as self-contained entries. I was talking about what worked not what they wanted. I don't automatically assume execs are right.

As for Black Lightning, maybe it will go downhill, maybe it won’t. putting it in a shared universe won’t solve the problem of writing. And it isn’t like shared universes won’t stop arguments or clashes. AoS’ first season had tons of issues because they were hamstrung by the movies. This is even assuming the Nightwing movie is happening. Not like he needs it given he’ll be on two different t.v. shows.

[Agent Z]

At this point the MCU could very well be considered separate from the TV/Netflix/Hulu shows despite an arc the first season of Agents of SHIELD directly coming from Coulson's fate in the first Avengers film. The movies don't bother to pay them so much as lip service (even when the helicarrier from Age of Ultron was revealed to have been fixed up in a project led by Coulson, the secret nature of which was a subplot in season 2 of Agents of Shield), and Agents of SHIELD has pretty much long since stopped trying to tie into specific MCU events. I haven't watched the Netflix Defenders shows, so I can't say if they reference the films. The MCU has 19 films so far (where very few could be considered filler), citing TV show length doesn't hold much water as an excuse anymore especially with binge watching being increasingly common.

Allowing the DC TV shows to use some characters and storylines from the film properties, that are more suited to longform TV storytelling or aren't considered worth their own movie, would be a better option. Give the bigger, more cinematic storylines to the films where the budget and scope can do them better justice.

This too. Well said.

[Armor of God]

What WB wants and what audiences want are two different things. Did it ever occur to you that this obsession with trying to catch up to Marvel is what causes problems like the current situation now? Audiences don’t need the shows and movies to be in the same universe. Young Justice, Nolan Trilogy and all their other successful works did just fine as self-contained entries. I was talking about what worked not what they wanted. I don't automatically assume execs are right.

As for Black Lightning, maybe it will go downhill, maybe it won’t. putting it in a shared universe won’t solve the problem of writing. And it isn’t like shared universes won’t stop arguments or clashes. AoS’ first season had tons of issues because they were hamstrung by the movies. This is even assuming the Nightwing movie is happening. Not like he needs it given he’ll be on two different t.v. shows.

Then on the other hand there's also DCAU which is their own successful attempt at a shared universe. Nolan made his films in a completely different period and we're talking about the same Young Justice that got canned with in 2 seasons and is returning after years after fans practically begged WB incessantly. I have no problem with a standalone universe but nothing is truly standalone now. The Batman franchise can be standalone next to Superman or Wonder Woman but what about characters and concepts WITH IN the Batman franchise? does it make sense to create a Damian Wayne tv show and then introduce him separately in a movie and have producers fighting over embargoes or whatever? or is it more sensible to introduce Damian in a film and then give him a show?

These days tv shows have achieved a high level of acting quality and production values, WB doesn't need to keep the obsolete Berlanti drama model with its subpar cast of actors. Marvel's success has been bringing tv to film and it works. They made 2 billion dollar films in one year.

Black Lightning will absolutely go downhill , its second season has already been extended to 23 episodes and it will crossover with Felicityverse before long. This isn't me making a prediction, its just how the Berlanti model works.

[jbmasta]

This too. Well said.

Plus they've stopped doing the DVD/Blu-Ray shorts. Last one I can remember is the one for Iron Man 3. The DC films are a lot better than the Marvel films now when it comes to the DVD releases. The MCU films haven't had any special features on the DVD since Ant-Man at least in 2015, anything beyond other languages and subtitles is exclusively Blu-Ray now. Not even a token three minute blooper reel.

[jbmasta]

Then on the other hand there's also DCAU which is their own successful attempt at a shared universe. Nolan made his films in a completely different period and we're talking about the same Young Justice that got canned with in 2 seasons and is returning after years after fans practically begged WB incessantly. I have no problem with a standalone universe but nothing is truly standalone now. The Batman franchise can be standalone next to Superman or Wonder Woman but what about characters and concepts WITH IN the Batman franchise? does it make sense to create a Damian Wayne tv show and then introduce him separately in a movie and have producers fighting over embargoes or whatever? or is it more sensible to introduce Damian in a film and then give him a show?

These days tv shows have achieved a high level of acting quality and production values, WB doesn't need to keep the obsolete Berlanti drama model with its subpar cast of actors. Marvel's success has been bringing tv to film and it works. They made 2 billion dollar films in one year.

Black Lightning will absolutely go downhill , its second season has already been extended to 23 episodes and it will crossover with Felicityverse before long. This isn't me making a prediction, its just how the Berlanti model works.

Riverdale had a great first 13 episode season, but the second 22 episode season was a lot more flawed. Guess who's on Riverdale (hint: one episode had a subplot where a bunch of characters went to see Love, Simon at the movie theatre).

[Armor of God]

At this point the MCU could very well be considered separate from the TV/Netflix/Hulu shows despite an arc the first season of Agents of SHIELD directly coming from Coulson's fate in the first Avengers film. The movies don't bother to pay them so much as lip service (even when the helicarrier from Age of Ultron was revealed to have been fixed up in a project led by Coulson, the secret nature of which was a subplot in season 2 of Agents of Shield), and Agents of SHIELD has pretty much long since stopped trying to tie into specific MCU events. I haven't watched the Netflix Defenders shows, so I can't say if they reference the films. The MCU has 19 films so far (where very few could be considered filler), citing TV show length doesn't hold much water as an excuse anymore especially with binge watching being increasingly common.

Allowing the DC TV shows to use some characters and storylines from the film properties, that are more suited to longform TV storytelling or aren't considered worth their own movie, would be a better option. Give the bigger, more cinematic storylines to the films where the budget and scope can do them better justice.

I'm not saying that shows and films need to reference each other again and again. You just highlighted my point, Marvel has created a successful shared universe. A successful version can bring the characters together when it needs and keep them firmly independent when it doesn't. It is absolutely the gold standard of how the universe works.

DC even needs a shared universe more than Marvel does . Many if not most of DC's properties are shared among large "family" groups. Daredevil can exist separately from Captain America, Black Panther, Moon Knight, Spider-Man etc. Nightwing and Red Hood cant exist separately from Batman. Does it make sense then to introduce Red Hood in a gritty Batman film by Reeves and then giving Berlanti the right to make a tv show on CW with the character which is angst, teeny bopper drama driven featuring a sub par pretty face and then putting embargoes on what is to be used or not or just give the Reeves version his own Breaking Bad style spinoff?

[Agent Z]

Then on the other hand there's also DCAU which is their own successful attempt at a shared universe.

Yes and it was great while it lasted. It is also something that isn’t necessarily going to be replicated again nor does it have to be.

Nolan made his films in a completely different period and we're talking about the same Young Justice that got canned with in 2 seasons and is returning after years after fans practically begged WB incessantly.

Yeah and what’s your point? YJ was canned because of toy sales not because people weren’t watching it (which is quite incredible considering how it was being jerked around by CN). It’s back because it developed a strong enough following to bring it back.

I have no problem with a standalone universe but nothing is truly standalone now. The Batman franchise can be standalone next to Superman or Wonder Woman but what about characters and concepts WITH IN the Batman franchise? does it make sense to create a Damian Wayne tv show and then introduce him separately in a movie and have producers fighting over embargoes or whatever? or is it more sensible to introduce Damian in a film and then give him a show?

That’s for the producers to work out on their own behind the scenes. If we can have two Barry Allens, one on t.v. and one in the movies, two Damian Waynes won’t bring the end of the world.

These days tv shows have achieved a high level of acting quality and production values, WB doesn't need to keep the obsolete Berlanti drama model with its subpar cast of actors. Marvel's success has been bringing tv to film and it works. They made 2 billion dollar films in one year.

Good for Marvel. That’s their formula. Doesn’t need to be for everyone else. One advantage of multiple universes is that if one fails, you have another to fall back on. You may not like the current DCEU but at least it isn’t the only place you can turn to for Batman in adaptations. Not following a shared universe model also allows for more freedom and being less hamstrung by continuity (again see AoS season 1).

Black Lightning will absolutely go downhill , its second season has already been extended to 23 episodes and it will crossover with Felicityverse before long. This isn't me making a prediction, its just how the Berlanti model works.

If it’s all the same with you, I’ll wait and see to judge for myself.

[Armor of God]

Yes and it was great while it lasted. It is also something that isn’t necessarily going to be replicated again nor does it have to be.

What it shows is that its possible, they've done it themselves.

Yeah and what’s your point? YJ was canned because of toy sales not because people weren’t watching it (which is quite incredible considering how it was being jerked around by CN). It’s back because it developed a strong enough following to bring it back.

Good for Young Justice but its not the gold standard in anything that you're trying to pass it off as. DC has better and more successful properties and those also have strong followings. Anything DCAU related will destroy YJ in terms of following. Point is that what exactly is WB supposed to learn from YJ? Stuffing every character imaginable on one show? Making excuses about toys isn't going to cut it, merchandise sales is an integral part of these type of products especially for cartoons airing on networks. Thats how they make revenue. No executive is going to look at a cartoon show continuing out of pity on a unproven streaming service because it failed on a network as the basis of they manage their films. Box office, merch, DVD, critical reception everything counts.

That’s for the producers to work out on their own behind the scenes. If we can have two Barry Allens, one on t.v. and one in the movies, two Damian Waynes won’t bring the end of the world.

Except DCEU Barry and CW Barry fans are constantly fighting. Moreover there's a real danger that the Flash film will retread atleast the first seasons plot points. There's no point in having 2 different Damian's with embargoes on each other running around. This is just handicapping both. Take a good look at Arrow and Deathstroke. Arrow cant use its arguably best character. The only reason tv Flash has been lucky is because DCEU has been a mess.

Good for Marvel. That’s their formula. Doesn’t need to be for everyone else. One advantage of multiple universes is that if one fails, you have another to fall back on. You may not like the current DCEU but at least it isn’t the only place you can turn to for Batman in adaptations. Not following a shared universe model also allows for more freedom and being less hamstrung by continuity (again see AoS season 1)

.

It was DC's formula well before it was Marvels. Ever heard of something called best practices? Will you start a fire with matches found in your home or will you go out in the street find 2 rocks and keep rubbing them until you start a fire all because your neighbour also uses matches.WB failed because of their lack of planning which is exactly why we have a separate Nightwing film and tv show being made and their desire to catch up with in 2 films. The model works fine, its WB hoping to milk everything all the time thats the problem. Instead of getting Superman right they just made Krypton and are planning another prequel show.

If it’s all the same with you, I’ll wait and see to judge for myself.

Sure.