I know that MJ is Peter's main squeeze...

[boots]

It was explored well enough with Ultimate Spider-Man. Bendis showed how night and day that dynamic is and Peter eventually went back to *aunt may. Back to who it always works best with.

fixed it! you're welcome.

[Zeitgeist]

So true! Aunt May will always be the #1 woman in Peter's heart, the one he will move mountains and throw away everything else up for.
That's the real unbreakable love story here <3

[Snoop Dogg]

only one may wield the wheatcakes

[Zeitgeist]

vvvvv

only one may wield the wheatcakes

^^^^^

[boots]

mephisto hating on himself for going for the marriage not the wheatcakes

[WebSlingWonder]

This fanbase is so freaking toxic and I'm sometimes ashamed to be a Spider-fan.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

This fanbase is so freaking toxic and I'm sometimes ashamed to be a Spider-fan.

Every fanbase has toxic elements and for sure there are fans who call others toxic and so on. To me, it's best to go case by case, keep calm, and carry on. People need to accept that there's some stuff that's gonna be unresolved, that people will disagree with, and that people will keep arguing. Just accept that because in a way that's what fandom is all about.

The fact is people no longer agree on what they want from Spider-Man. Everything from AF#15 upto say ASM #300 has a consensus of sorts but nobody agrees on anything after that. Nothing after that is really set in stone.

[Kevinroc]

Also that's a good point but I don't see why/how a costumed paramour can't affect the dynamic of the Peter Parker part of the equation. I'd love to see that explored more in depth sometime, something more than a short Mockingbird fling.

One of the big things about Spider-Man is the Needs of Peter Parker vs. The Needs of Spider-Man. Giving Spidey a costumed love interest completely destroys that. Peter wants to spend time with MJ, but oh no, the Shocker is robbing the bank.

If Peter is with, say, Mockingbird, that's no longer an issue. Hell, even Black Cat throws that dynamic out of whack. (Also, it makes Spidey more like most other super heroes who tend to get together with other super heroes. And the last thing anyone should want is Spidey being more like other super heroes.)

The very premise undermines one of the central conflicts of the franchise. This is why the Mockingbird romance was doomed from the start. This is why Black Cat will never be the main love interest. This is why things didn't work out with Kitty Pryde over in Ultimate. This is why any major romance with a super heroine is never going to be anything more than a short fling (relatively speaking).

You could explore it in some special AU project built around it. Something like a Renew Your Vows where MJ suits up. But you have to completely revamp the idea of Spider-Man from the ground up. (RYV using powered Peter and MJ as a metaphor for the partnership of marriage and parenting.) Not something that the main continuity would ever do.

[Kevinroc]

That's why I didn't mind so much when he wrote her out of the book for pretty much all of post-Superior, I'd much rather have him not use a character he's not interested in, than constantly write around or tease something we know isn't gonna go anywhere.

While I really liked Go Down Swinging overall, that opening with them still confuses me because I have no idea what the point of it was. It's not really thematically related, it doesn't pay off by the end, and it's not re-iterating a point about them as a couple, because that gets immediately turned around by Spencer.

Based on his older comments, he didn't want the write them as a couple without them being married because he didn't think it would be interesting if he couldn't go all the way. And I think that is ultimately why he didn't end up writing real compelling relationships for Spider-Man, because there was other things he found more interested, and his desired approach was out of bounds for the most part.

But that's the thing. Slott wanted to use her. MJ's a big part of Spider-Man's world. She's a character created by Lee, Ditko, and Romita. And what kind of major Spider-Man fan wouldn't want to play with such a character?

I just don't think he knew what to do with her beyond thinking she couldn't be romantically involved with Peter again. Which is why he hit the same beats with her over and over again. (I wonder if he knew what Spencer had planned for her when he was writing his last arc.)

[Revolutionary_Jack]

(Also, it makes Spidey more like most other super heroes who tend to get together with other super heroes. And the last thing anyone should want is Spidey being more like other super heroes.)

Peter/MJ is the only superhero/civilian romance and marriage in Marvel. It's pretty rare and unique for that reason. Every other major Marvel couple are within the teams, within superheroes and so on. In DC that's more common because civilian supporting characters being iconic fixtures is more their thing than Marvel's. I mean Alan Moore's Swamp Thing had Batman in probably the most liberal he's ever being defend Swamp Thing's romance with Abby Holland that brings her to trial for having an interspecies romance, Batman points to Gotham's mayor they could set a precedent that sends them after a good section of the superhero community including "the one from Metropolis".

[Zeitgeist]

One of the big things about Spider-Man is the Needs of Peter Parker vs. The Needs of Spider-Man. Giving Spidey a costumed love interest completely destroys that. Peter wants to spend time with MJ, but oh no, the Shocker is robbing the bank.

If Peter is with, say, Mockingbird, that's no longer an issue. Hell, even Black Cat throws that dynamic out of whack. (Also, it makes Spidey more like most other super heroes who tend to get together with other super heroes. And the last thing anyone should want is Spidey being more like other super heroes.)

The very premise undermines one of the central conflicts of the franchise. This is why the Mockingbird romance was doomed from the start. This is why Black Cat will never be the main love interest. This is why things didn't work out with Kitty Pryde over in Ultimate. This is why any major romance with a super heroine is never going to be anything more than a short fling (relatively speaking).

You could explore it in some special AU project built around it. Something like a Renew Your Vows where MJ suits up. But you have to completely revamp the idea of Spider-Man from the ground up. (RYV using powered Peter and MJ as a metaphor for the partnership of marriage and parenting.) Not something that the main continuity would ever do.

There's so many other ways the "needs of Peter Parker" could be addressed with a costumed love interest than fighting crime together somehow robbing tension. Have we seen Peter really get in deep with a costumed romance? Have we seen him looking all forlorn out of the window for once? Plus that's running on the assumption that all costumed love interests are the same, while I'd say Black Cat and Mockingbirb for example couldn't be two more different people. Things working and not working is absolutely up to the prerogative of the writers by-the-by - if something doesn't work, 9 times out of 10 it's because it's designed that way. I think we all know that if editorial mandate wants something to stick, they'll make it happen.

And while two superheroes dating is a well established trope elsewhere, it's one that's largely uncharted territory for Spider-Man apart from his very unique 80's romance with Black Cat (that's like 35 years ago or something), so what's old elsewhere is a new frontier in the here and now, IMO.

[Snoop Dogg]

mockingbirb sounds very cute, one of those chonky birbs in bobbi's costume

[Miles To Go]

The fact is people no longer agree on what they want from Spider-Man. Everything from AF#15 upto say ASM #300 has a consensus of sorts but nobody agrees on anything after that. Nothing after that is really set in stone.

That's true. You'll even get people who argue that, depending on your choice of Newspaper, RYV, MC2, Real Clone Saga, etc, Spider-Man is more or less a complete story and all we have left is post-script seasonal rot or glorified official fanfic.

[Kevinroc]

There's so many other ways the "needs of Peter Parker" could be addressed with a costumed love interest than fighting crime together somehow robbing tension. Have we seen Peter really get in deep with a costumed romance? Have we seen him looking all forlorn out of the window for once? Plus that's running on the assumption that all costumed love interests are the same, while I'd say Black Cat and Mockingbirb for example couldn't be two more different people. Things working and not working is absolutely up to the prerogative of the writers by-the-by - if something doesn't work, 9 times out of 10 it's because it's designed that way. I think we all know that if editorial mandate wants something to stick, they'll make it happen.

And while two superheroes dating is a well established trope elsewhere, it's one that's largely uncharted territory for Spider-Man apart from his very unique 80's romance with Black Cat (that's like 35 years ago or something), so what's old elsewhere is a new frontier in the here and now, IMO.

This post is not really making a good argument.

Sorry.

(If I can give some constructive criticism. The problem with this post is you don't really answer my "the needs of Peter Parker vs. the needs of Spider-Man". You talk about how writers could make Spidey/Superheroine work if they really tried. Which seems pretty dismissive of what writers do. Do you think Slott went into Spidey/Mockingbird thinking he'd put no effort into those issues?)

[WebLurker]

Queenpin appearances shouldn't count in my opinion. I could count the number of appearances where she was in-character back then on one hand (and with not that many fingers).

Still, it was authorized by the IP holders, meaning that it was considered a legitimate story for the character. Granted, I really like that story and I'm not a huge Black Cat fan, so I guess I don't have a problem with her being a bad guy. Thing for me, if the Marvel brass were even considering redeeming Black Cat later down the line, I don't think they should've made that story. While I can rationalize that in shared universe like this not everything will match up, character's alignment has more to do with popularity then internal logic, and that everything reverts to status quo in the end, at the end of the day, it just makes everyone look bad if she's able to get off scot-free like that after some really nasty stuff.

This fanbase is so freaking toxic and I'm sometimes ashamed to be a Spider-fan.

Don't blame you. Some of the most toxic fan circles I've seen online actually hooked me in for a time because they shared the same opinions and frustrations I had regarding this franchise.