Detective Comics #974 preview

[Agent Z]

Um he did shut down Jason in UTRH.

Not really. Like the Joker blew up a building around them and they basically just f'ed off after that for a while.

And patents? What? She chose to wear his symbol because it meant something in Gotham and the only reason it means something is because Bruce made it mean something. She could have chosen to be anything but she chose something that would associate her with Batman. Besides Bruce didn't tear it off, Cass did.

I know that. I was referring to tall man's comment about Bruce not wanting certain people to wear his symbol.

And why would he take her to court? They're illegal vigilantes. If the Bat family doesn't want her representing them then she cant.

My point exactly. If they don't want her representing her (and it's a stretch to say she's even doing that given this is the most she's worked closely with them in a long time) they legally cannot do anything about it. Nor do they really have a right to. Over in Outlaws, Jason't running around killing people and I highly doubt Bruce isn't aware of this somehow.

[Hulkout42]

If Bruce was ever truly serious about shutting down Jason or Kate over their actions he could do it easily, but the writers would never do it. Simply put, it seems to me that Bruce is used as a punching bag to make the "family" look good. Make him the jerk or the hipocrite or the bad father, and have the family member put him in his place. This is why there should be a wall between Batman and the family, he doesn't need them, they do nothing for him save for being a club to bash him with and in truth there shouldn't be a family to begin with. If the Batfamily fans don't want their favorites to answer to Batman then why do they want them to be associated with him in anyway. Bruce has every right to kick Kate off the team and to take the symbol from her. Dispite what some may think she is wearing a bat symbol, does not matter that the design is different than Bruce's. It's his symbol which means that you represent Batman when you wear it. If Kate can't abide by Bruce's code then she needs to get her own identity and symbol, which it seems she will with the Colony.

But wouldn't that just change from being the Bat's symbol to her fathers? I mean it seems that if she sticks with Bruce its under his symbol and if she goes to the Colony it will be her fathers and in the end she still has no symbol or identity of her own...meaning she is still screwed.

[Hulkout42]

But Damian works 10x as hard to make up for his past as a killer.

He tries to be better then that even though that's the world and life he came from in the League of Assassins.

Wasn't the point of the story that Bruce would be able to beat Jason if he needed to? In their final fight he finally went all out and stopped him until Jason got away in the explosion.

I think Alfred (grandfather), Nightwing (Big brother) and Superboy(best friend) have also been a positive factor in Damian wanting to be a better person than what his grandfather wants him to be.
Although i do wonder if Selina can be a good mother figure (should the marriage be allowed to happen of course) that can also help him become more than he is.

[The tall man]

Not really. Like the Joker blew up a building around them and they basically just f'ed off after that for a while.



I know that. I was referring to tall man's comment about Bruce not wanting certain people to wear his symbol.



My point exactly. If they don't want her representing her (and it's a stretch to say she's even doing that given this is the most she's worked closely with them in a long time) they legally cannot do anything about it. Nor do they really have a right to. Over in Outlaws, Jason't running around killing people and I highly doubt Bruce isn't aware of this somehow.

This is a moot point because it would never happen and Bruce would never do it, but if Batman told Batwoman to stop wearing his symbol or he would personally take it off her what could she do to stop him? She cannot beat him so what could she do to stop him from taking it. If Kate wants to do her own thing and not associate with Batman or the family as a whole that's fine, but she needs to remove the bat symbol. And legal/illegal has nothing to do with it, this is not a "I'm going to sue you"situation. It's more of a fighting situation and Kate would lose in that regard. In reality Bruce is too soft-hearted, he often let's people get away with a lot and also let's others vent their fustrations and anger on himself. Some think he should be more ruthless in regards to killing his enemies, but what if he showed that same ruthlessness to the family if he deemed they crossed a line, what then? What if he showed no mercy to Jason in UTRH, what if decided to put down Kate for killing Clayface, what if he decided to be more firm and strict with Damian? What would people have to say then.

[Agent Z]

This is a moot point because it would never happen and Bruce would never do it, but if Batman told Batwoman to stop wearing his symbol or he would personally take it off her what could she do to stop him? She cannot beat him so what could she do to stop him from taking it. If Kate wants to do her own thing and not associate with Batman or the family as a whole that's fine, but she needs to remove the bat symbol. And legal/illegal has nothing to do with it, this is not a "I'm going to sue you"situation. It's more of a fighting situation and Kate would lose in that regard. In reality Bruce is too soft-hearted, he often let's people get away with a lot and also let's others vent their fustrations and anger on himself. Some think he should be more ruthless in regards to killing his enemies, but what if he showed that same ruthlessness to the family if he deemed they crossed a line, what then? What if he showed no mercy to Jason in UTRH, what if decided to put down Kate for killing Clayface, what if he decided to be more firm and strict with Damian? What would people have to say then.

And you're so sure Kate couldn't beat Bruce because?

If he put down Kate for killing Clayface he'd be a murderer unlike her. Justifiable homicide is not a crime. On the other hand him showing no mercy to Jason might be him walking the walk for once. And Damian would be better off being raised as far away from all the craziness surrounding the Bats or the League of Assassins.

And Kaye isn't the one acting irrational here. Bruce and the rest are.

[The tall man]

And you're so sure Kate couldn't beat Bruce because?

If he put down Kate for killing Clayface he'd be a murderer unlike her. Justifiable homicide is not a crime. On the other hand him showing no mercy to Jason might be him walking the walk for once. And Damian would be better off being raised as far away from all the craziness surrounding the Bats or the League of Assassins.

And Kaye isn't the one acting irrational here. Bruce and the rest are.

No chance in hell could Kate beat Bruce, and if she did it would be straight up PIS! Sorry but Kate is simply not on Bruce's level in any regard. Not in fighting prowess, not in tactics or strategy, not in sheer will, drive or determination. Bruce out classes her in every aspect. Some like to think that she is better than him but that's just wishful thinking. Of course she won't face any consequences for her actions(Cass should have given her a beating), she will be defiant and say she would do it all over again and she(with the Colony) will make Batman look incompetent because Tynion has been building her up at Bruce's expense. But everything being equal and everyone written in character to the best of their abilities, Bruce stomps Kate; no contest.

[Agent Z]

No chance in hell could Kate beat Bruce, and if she did it would be straight up PIS!

That word doesn’t mean what you think it means.

Sorry but Kate is simply not on Bruce's level in any regard. Not in fighting prowess, not in tactics or strategy, not in sheer will, drive or determination. Bruce out classes her in every aspect. Some like to think that she is better than him but that's just wishful thinking.

I’m sure you’ll offer up some evidence to back this up besides your love of Bruce.

Of course she won't face any consequences for her actions(Cass should have given her a beating), she will be defiant and say she would do it all over again and she(with the Colony) will make Batman look incompetent because Tynion has been building her up at Bruce's expense. But everything being equal and everyone written in character to the best of their abilities, Bruce stomps Kate; no contest.

If Bruce won’t face any consequences for Brother Eye or breaking Selina out of prison, I fail to see why Kate not facing any consequences for justifiable homicide is a problem.
As for the rest of your post, I think at some point you just have to accept that Bruce is not and never will be perfect.

[Barbatos666]

Bruce's feats across the board are vastly superior. This is like comparing Steve Rogers to Sam Wilson or Superman to Steel. Its a one sided beatdown.

Current Brother Eye hasn't done anything yet, its actually heroic like the original Kirby version. Selina allowed herself to be framed but now has had Holly claim responsibility. Her death was already pardoned because of the events of I am Suicide.

Mind you even the Pre Flashpoint Brother Eye was corrupted by Alex Luthor and Max Lord. Future's End is just one possible future.

[Agent Z]

Brother Eye was a disaster waiting to happen if only because of Bruce's crappy luck with his attempts to police the superhero community going wrong. Also, didn't the reboot version attack the JLI?
I'm aware of what happened after Bruce broke Selina out. It doesn't change the fact he played blatant favorites in that instance and that if he can be forgiven for that, then Kate shouldn't get any flack for killing Clayface to stop him when Bruce has committed far more questionable actions. Hell Bruce had no issue with Selina killing Blackmask in cold blood pre-Flashpoint.

[The tall man]

That word doesn’t mean what you think it means.


I’m sure you’ll offer up some evidence to back this up besides your love of Bruce.


If Bruce won’t face any consequences for Brother Eye or breaking Selina out of prison, I fail to see why Kate not facing any consequences for justifiable homicide is a problem.
As for the rest of your post, I think at some point you just have to accept that Bruce is not and never will be perfect.

No Bruce is not perfect, far from it. But he is vastly superior to Kate, and that is something you will just have to accept. I make no apologies for my love of Bruce, he is one of the greatest characters in all of comicdom, and arguably the #1 character with the #1 book at this moment in time. And when someone is at the top others are always looking to tear them down, which is what a lot of posters on this board seek to do. Blaming Bruce for all the problems of the Batfamily seems to be a common thing here, no matter what the issue, it's somehow always Bruce's fault. And also trying to diminish his capacity, acomplishments and effectiveness is also commonplace here. So I will always proudly defend Bruce because only a handful truly do.

[Doctor Bifrost]

If the Batfamily fans don't want their favorites to answer to Batman then why do they want them to be associated with him in anyway.

There's a difference between association and subservience. Batman may not think so - he usually thinks everyone should be subservient to him - but Kate and her fans are entirely entitled to think so.

You know, way back in the Silver Age, the Legion of Super-Heroes had a hard-and-fast rule against killing. Star Boy killed someone in self-defense. But they didn't throw him out of the Legion until Brainiac 5 demonstrated that there was a way Star Boy could have protected himself without killing the guy.

(I thought that even that was a little unfair, since Star Boy did not have access to Brainiac 5's super-intelligence during the incident.)

If Bruce and Tim are going to keep repeating "We always find a better way!", they really should make a suggestion or two about what that better way would be.

[Doctor Bifrost]

Which he still is.

I feel like we're reading about two different Jacob Kanes. In the version I see, he lied to (explicitly and by omission of key information) and manipulated his emotionally troubled, bereaved, unwitting daughter into being a creation that would be most useful to him in his organization. That doesn't say "decent family man" to me.

[Assam]

If Bruce and Tim are going to keep repeating "We always find a better way!", they really should make a suggestion or two about what that better way would be.

Bruce could have, you know, called the two GL's stationed on Earth who can travel around the globe in the time it takes us to blink. I know 'Why doesn't Batman call Superman?' is the kind of thing we're usually supposed to ignore in his stories, but generally the absence of other heroes doesn't cause stuff like THIS to happen.

Also, in regards to characters being made to look bad, I really think the only ones who don't look bad here are Cass, JPV and Victoria.

[Doctor Bifrost]

But Damian works 10x as hard to make up for his past as a killer.

Than who? Kate? She's had, like, 10 minutes.

[Caivu]

I feel like we're reading about two different Jacob Kanes. In the version I see, he lied to (explicitly and by omission of key information) and manipulated his emotionally troubled, bereaved, unwitting daughter into being a creation that would be most useful to him in his organization. That doesn't say "decent family man" to me.

Huh? Kate wanted to join the military. Jacob didn't push her into that at all, only supported her in it. And of course he would have wanted her to be the very best she could be, and possibly work alongside him.

No chance in hell could Kate beat Bruce, and if she did it would be straight up PIS!

You know she already has, right? And pretty much by the skin of her teeth?