Detective Comics #974 preview

[Assam]

Than who? Kate? She's had, like, 10 minutes.

And in those 10 minutes, she's acted remorseless and cold to those around her. If you ignore that Bruce COULD have called in for help to save Basil and just say that there really was no other way, that's the worst thing about what she's done. It's not too late for her to turn around and make amends but she did not get off on the right foot.

[Doctor Bifrost]

Huh? Kate wanted to join the military. Jacob didn't push her into that at all, only supported her in it. And of course he would have wanted her to be the very best she could be, and possibly work alongside him.

I certainly wasn't talking about "joining the military."

You're skipping the lying, the omissions, the manipulation, and the secret plans. He had a destiny and a role picked out for her that she wasn't in on, and he herded her towards it while concealing it from her.

[The tall man]

Huh? Kate wanted to join the military. Jacob didn't push her into that at all, only supported her in it. And of course he would have wanted her to be the very best she could be, and possibly work alongside him.



You know she already has, right? And pretty much by the skin of her teeth?

Batman was not taking that fight seriously. If Bruce truly went all out against Kate she would get destroyed. Bruce is one of the best h2h combatants in the world, Kate is not. Bruce is perhaps the best stratigist/tactician in the world, kate is not. And going by almost 8 decades worth of stories compared to less than a decade for Kate, Bruce is overall more capable than Kate in every respect and aspect. Kate is a competent, capable and resourceful character in her own right, but she is just not on Bruce's level, very few characters such as Deathstroke are on his level.

[Caivu]

I certainly wasn't talking about "joining the military."

You're skipping the lying, the omissions, the manipulation, and the secret plans. He had a destiny and a role picked out for her that she wasn't in on, and he herded her towards it while concealing it from her.

Well, it's not like he could be upfront with her about a top-secret black-ops group, certainly not at the very start. And it's not the first huge secret he's kept from her.

Batman was not taking that fight seriously.

She was trying to unmask him at the time, so yeah, he was. It's just that he was also trying to get her back on his side, and just knocking her out wouldn't have done that.

[Aioros22]

If Bruce was ever truly serious about shutting down Jason or Kate over their actions he could do it easily, but the writers would never do it. Simply put, it seems to me that Bruce is used as a punching bag to make the "family" look good. Make him the jerk or the hipocrite or the bad father, and have the family member put him in his place. This is why there should be a wall between Batman and the family, he doesn't need them, they do nothing for him save for being a club to bash him with and in truth there shouldn't be a family to begin with. If the Batfamily fans don't want their favorites to answer to Batman then why do they want them to be associated with him in anyway. Bruce has every right to kick Kate off the team and to take the symbol from her. Dispite what some may think she is wearing a bat symbol, does not matter that the design is different than Bruce's. It's his symbol which means that you represent Batman when you wear it. If Kate can't abide by Bruce's code then she needs to get her own identity and symbol, which it seems she will with the Colony.

This post is exactly why Batman needs this sort of storylines.

Lets also pretend he doesnt morally clash with his colleages or Gordon every week In and out In other books.

No, tall, what you really want is a solo Batman. No League, no Brave and the Bold, no family. Which is fine but that yoyo was dead 10 years into publication. I want Batman challenged! Someone Who changed so many lives demands It.

The only thing I could agree on principle is that Bruce created his Symbol and should claim on who wears It. That said, the moment you introduce movements based on brand and Inspiration and autitions to wear It across the globe, you stop owning it.

[Bat-Meal]

Culture and symbols evolve, as much as some might not want them to (like Batman for example).

For example, artists re-interpret others artists work all the time and evolve the meanings - this is not the same thing as straight-up copyright which would be an exact or near exact replica without reference or acknowledgement of the original.

From my understanding of the original Batwoman solo and the writer's preface is the idea that Batwoman took the symbol and reinterpreted it - hence it is not the same bat. Whether you agree or not with the re-interpretation is up to you. But that is what she has done. And Batman didn't challenged her on killing in the past whilst wearing the symbol. Perhaps he only cares now because she is officially part of the Batfamily.

The Batwoman character, going back to the original Kathy Kane (a different and no longer canon character) was always one that took the Bat symbol and appointed herself the Batwoman identity.

From what I know of the history this is an important aspect of every version of Batwoman so far - she was never appointed by Batman and didn't seek his approval or permission like the BatKids.

Which is why with the current Kate Kane - in the original solo she was a vigilante inspired by Batman, but was otherwise not associated. And apart from the occasional team-ups, (more frequently with Nightwing than anyone else the Batfamily), she kept her independence and repeatedly refused to join Batman's family despite being asked more than once.

Which also makes the entire 'Tec run of her joining the Batfamily and Gotham Knights out-of-character for her in the first place IMO. She used to have her own Batwoman-family, which consisted of Jacob, Bette, Maggie, Catherine and perhaps for a while there very very reluctantly Chase (depending on how you want to interpret things). I mean, she arguably had a much closer relationship with Wonder Woman than she did with Batman back then.

[Caivu]

Which also makes the entire 'Tec run of her joining the Batfamily and Gotham Knights out-of-character for her in the first place IMO. She used to have her own Batwoman-family, which consisted of Jacob, Bette, Maggie, Catherine and perhaps for a while there very very reluctantly Chase (depending on how you want to interpret things). I mean, she arguably had a much closer relationship with Wonder Woman than she did with Batman back then.

It's not. A big theme of her first series was about becoming more nuanced in her "I work alone" policy. And she was perfectly willing to work alongside the rest of the Batfamily throughout the New 52. She just didn't want to join Batman, Inc.

[Bat-Meal]

It's not. A big theme of her first series was about becoming more nuanced in her "I work alone" policy. And she was perfectly willing to work alongside the rest of the Batfamily throughout the New 52. She just didn't want to join Batman, Inc.

The part where she was going off to do a vital mission against Batman alone. And her Batwoman-family chewed-her-out for trying to do everything alone. They told her to 'climb down from the cross' and 'let them help her' (I can't be bothered looking-up the exact quote right now, but that is basically it). It was about working with her family, not the Batman-family. :P

A big part of it was about including Bette/Flamebird/Hawkfire, since she originally kept pushing Bette away and trying to go alone. Bette always came back and helped her, improved her training, and should still always be at her side except she got sidelined to make way for Batwoman to get lumped-in with the Batfamily. Flamebird should be at Batwoman's side, not the Gotham Knights, and certainly not Batman.

[Caivu]

Except Kate also worked with other members of the Batfamily throughout the New 52, particularly Barbara, or gave assistance if they asked her.

[Bat-Meal]

Except Kate also worked with other members of the Batfamily throughout the New 52, particularly Barbara, or gave assistance if they asked her.

Offering an associate assistance doesn't make them family.

[Caivu]

Offering an associate assistance doesn't make them family.

I'm not understanding what you're having a problem with.

[Twice-named]

As the Elegy collection states, "This was not another devotee of the Dark Knight. This woman went her own way." Sadly, this has not been the case since the utterly horrible Batwoman Annual #1. I’m waiting ever so patiently for a writer to come along and completely ignore everything Andreyko, Tynion, and Bennett have done. What I wouldn’t give for Rucka, Williams, or Blackman to come back.

[Bat-Meal]

I'm not understanding what you're having a problem with.

No problem. I'm saying Batman and his family aren't Batwoman's family. Batwoman's family should be Bette, Renee, Catherine.

I'm not sure about Julia though, since Batman sent her to spy on and babysit Kate for Bruce - I don't think Kate should tolerate her presence due to that. And the way Jacob is now makes it seem like he should go too. Manipulators and or spies both. Perhaps either or both of them can redeem themselves though.

IMO I want Bette back, she should never have been tossed-out of Kate's mythos. The first time she was tossed out was in the Andreyko run, which was the first time they tried to give Kate a team, which was horrendous. The Gotham Knights are for the most part okay, but every time they try to force Batwoman into a team it seems Bette gets tossed aside. Why? Teams by definition are made-up of more than one person, and Bette is important to Kate, she should have been included IMO. Flamebird is to Batwoman as Robin is to Batman. End of rant.

[Caivu]

As the Elegy collection states, "This was not another devotee of the Dark Knight. This woman went her own way." Sadly, this has not been the case since the utterly horrible Batwoman Annual #1. I’m waiting ever so patiently for a writer to come along and completely ignore everything Andreyko, Tynion, and Bennett have done. What I wouldn’t give for Rucka, Williams, or Blackman to come back.

It's very odd that you speak highly of Williams and Blackman as Kate's writers, since you're apparently ignoring that they had her go through the very thing you're critical of. Character development.

Bennett and Tynion have been writing her excellently, just as W/B and Rucka did. Kate working more closely with the rest of the Batfamily now doesn't change the core of that quote.

[The tall man]

As the Elegy collection states, "This was not another devotee of the Dark Knight. This woman went her own way." Sadly, this has not been the case since the utterly horrible Batwoman Annual #1. I’m waiting ever so patiently for a writer to come along and completely ignore everything Andreyko, Tynion, and Bennett have done. What I wouldn’t give for Rucka, Williams, or Blackman to come back.

And that is what I've always taken issue with. If it was the intent of Batwoman's creators that she be completely independent and seperate from Batman then why tie her to him by giving her his symbol, likeness, image and name. Why make that link, was it so readers would think she was a badass when she declared that she is not a Batman follower? Was it because they assumed that if she was an all new original character that she would not catch on, a la Mother Panic? Did people expect that she could wear the bat symbol in Gotham and Batman would not factor into her book? The fact is you can't co-opt Batman's symbol for your own and think he won't have something to say about it. Kate is benefitting as a character from her connection to Batman, without those ties she would most likely be a failed character. So the idea that she is some independent badass that doesn't give a crap what Batman thinks and will do her own thing, but at the same time is wearing his symbol, utilizing his image, likeness and name just rings hollow. You want to do your own thing be original, don't leech off the popularity of an established star character. May not be a fan but at least Mother Panic does the whole independent from Batman, doing my own thing much better than Kate, at least she is her own person.