The forum certainly had a lot of character back then, and has essentially devolved into character appreciation, which is a shame. A couple of moderators had a bit of a grudge against this board and used some sort of controversy on the WW board as a mask to ban a lot of long time members on here.
Ugh. I wish Emma fans AND haters stopped making everything about her.
I finally managed to listen to the whole podcast. First of all, well done to the guys at AiPT as that was a really enjoyable one, and I also appreciate Jordan taking the time to do these interviews. I must say he came across as very likeable and down to earth, and I enjoyed hearing his views on continuity, charts, X-fans and characters.
Reading some of the comments on these forums it's hard to disagree on how extreme and personal certain fans can be, sort of projecting themselves into fictional characters and then getting offended if something happens to them, or worse if an editor dares expressing an opinion on them. And I'm sure it must be hard to see fans wanting to almost micromanage your work ("How dare he not keep charts?!"), which I'm also guilty of at times, so I really appreciate Jordan making time to interact with fans on Twitter and doing these interviews on a weekly basis despite the "Damned if you do, damned if you don't" feeling he surely must experience at times.
I think, to a certain degree, that a clash of POVs is inevitable. It's something we've seen going all the way back to Ye Olde X-Position interviews and beyond - fans think as fans and creators must think as creators, and each side gets frustrated with the other for not sharing the same priorities. I don't see that changing any time soon. I do wonder if JDW (and certain folks on his Twitter) wouldn't do better to encourage folks to, for example, discuss their opinions via the AiPT! comments section. Might do a bit to tone down the impression that there's some low-key cultivating of an "us vs them" attitude wrt one comics board.
Last edited by Anduinel; 05-27-2019 at 06:40 AM.
I've chatted with JDW here and there on the Twitters and like all forums for fans of something, people can get pretty personal and nasty if they disagree with something. Jordan genuinely enjoys chatting and hearing from readers. He would like to come to CBR more often, as it's only of the only major community sites for the X-Men, but the personal attacks make him think twice. When readers/posters are upset and say awful things about him personally, how can he not take it personally? How can any of us? I mean we, both CBR and people on the internet, can be pretty insensitive to others when trying to prove a point or vent our disappointment or anger about something.
It comes to down to respect. We may vehemently disagree with an opinion/story/etc, that's ok. Many (sadly not all) writers/editors/creators understand that. But when fans become disrespectful beyond their disappointment/anger/frustration, it's problematic. I don't blame him for taking a shot across the bow of CBR as not all of us are respectful here.
Yup. I think they hope everyone will have their excitement for the content they are giving, but not everyone will enjoy it.
I'd say here on CBR we can be pretty toxic to anyone, but overall I don't disagree with you. It's because we're so passionate about our characters. Pure and simple.
Ha
All of this. You don't have to like what is happening, but don't make it personal. I literally hate every decision they have made with Rachel the past two years, but I was able to have a great conversation with him and got him to understand the optics around how these "reads" to female readers and fans. I think he's a pretty good guy doing a hard job to please as many people and shareholders as possible.
Last edited by Anduinel; 05-27-2019 at 06:50 AM.
I agree some fans take things way too far. That has always been the case. Like many here, I've posted on x-men message boards for more years than I care to admit. I can recall a certain Jott shipper allegedly sending death threats to Greg Pak during Phoenix Enddsong and before that I believe Morrison got them from shippers (I'm not knocking all shippers, but there has been some that went too far to even criminal activity when you are sending online death threats to creators). There are fans that are too rabid and take things to the extreme. There are fans who do not have the best mental health. I wish these fans did not give us all bad names. I wish the outliers weren't used to widely criticize the consumer base (but look at comicsgate and those bigots continue to make geek/nerd fandom look horrible). I get it. Not all fans are created equal and there are fans that act in extreme bad faith.
I just think the editors and creators should stay above the fray. For example recently one of the comics twitter guys had a thread making fun of fans who were criticizing Jean in the Marvel Girl outfit and even Zac Thompson posted a few things. I just don't think they are always fair to the fans and to fan criticism. I think they assume the worst of most of us, unless we think about the books in the same way they do. Most of us will have a different relationship to the books than the creators because most of us are just readers and are not creators. Some of us are wannabe creators, but most of us are not.
I only saw a handful of people (if that) being upset with Jean in the Marvel Girl dress. I felt they used it as an excuse to knock on the fans. It can be off putting (and I'm not offended because I agreed with them - I love that they put Jean in the green outfit and out of the X-men Red costume)
I just don't think constantly blasting fans is the right tactic. Fans are going to discuss, especially on message boards, and on these boards you have to have thick skin. If you are creator there will be folks who do not like your work and they may have challenging, biting, or bold critiques. You will likely disagree with most of the critiques. Most critiques will not be a professional critique as you would find in a major publication or one found in an academic literary journal. Just be prepared.
I'm sure it is tough hearing from disgruntled fans but I think it is best just to ignore the outliers (the crazy types). I do suspect they knock on this forum due to the negativity/criticism of the current books than a few outliers who come across as too rabid. But I could be wrong.
I think our criticism of how minority characters are presented is extremely valid and though a lot of creators seem like they agree with us, it still doesn't translate much in the actual books (re: the trans panic story from an alleged ally Matt Rosenberg). If you look at the current books the cis white male dude bro characters are all centered and female and minority characters are not being treated very well (look at Rahne, Jean, Storm, etc). It is the same story over and over again with very little progression.
I think JDW is a good person, but there is so much room for improvement. I am hopeful that Hickman will give us an amazing X-men story that will rival Grant Morrison or Joss Whedon. I also was very excited when JDW was named as an editor because he was a fan (like us), but so far I've enjoyed the X-men under Mark Paniccia better (which is saying a lot because Blue and Gold both had problems).
Last edited by MechaJeanix; 05-27-2019 at 07:47 AM.
The inclusion of the dress is kind of a wash for me, really. I don't see why Jean couldn't have gotten some new duds for the cover, but the green mini is also one of three iconic outfits Jean has, and the other two are either tied to a very specific (done to death) storyline or extremely dated in a different context. But the comparison being made was to a moment where there were explicitly stated, character-specific reasons for bringing that look back vs going retro after it's been strongly implied on two fronts that the wardrobe change has no deeper motivation/won't be explained. The comparison lacked context to the point that it was bordering on the sycophantic, and I just had to roll my eyes at that whole bit.
I like JDW as editor. He often interacts with fans, instead of isolating himself on his job.
Despite his opinions, he lets writers pitch things that contradicts his views.
That's never going to happen, unfortunately.
While some constructive criticism (from fans/readers) can be helpful going forward, we should remember that these issues/stories are planned and written long before the books are published so we end up (over)reacting to something that's not really changeable. Going forward, the writers and editors can make changes to the story, if they see fit...but I'd wager that 95% of our vitriolic complaining and shytty attitudes are ignored...and rightly so...as we generally (and here in CBR, specifically) make up a very small percentage of the total actual readership.
I fully live by and endorse the maxim: If you don't like it...don't buy it.
At the end of the day Marvel and The X-editors and writers are not going to fall apart because of a mere handful of malcontents. And my life won't come to a crashing end because I can no longer enjoy my favourite comic book team or character.
You can't please everyone all of the time, and you can't simply do what other people say you should do when it's not going to work for you, especially in any kind of leadership role. This is true. In many cases, someone in a leadership role needs to make decisions that they determine are best for their area of responsibility and absorb the consequences of those decisions. It's tough, it takes time to acclimate, but it's part of the job.
However. Having to do something that will upset a particular group doesn't mean it ends there. Unless you do the job for one month and promptly quit, there will be other opportunities in the future to satisfy that upset group. The longer you're doing the job, the more opportunities you have - which simultaneously makes "I can give what happened here a pass cause maybe he'll do something later" less likely. The longer nothing happens, the more likely it appears that it never will with that editor. Because the editor passed on multiple opportunities already. Even if a big thing can't be done, a lot of small things surely can be.
As far as personal management style, like keeping charts, it would be expected that someone in a leadership position would be open to trying approaches they haven't tried before. Now, if they tried it and it didn't work, so be it. But if they never tried it, how would they know it won't work for them? They could be doing something purely cause it's what they've always known rather than because it works best for them. People in general are resistant to change. But leading something means having to attempt it. This also has an impact on the work itself.
There's also patterns of behavior. Again, the longer they're on the job, the more patterns they exhibit. It's inevitable. The patterns are fine when they're innocuous or helpful. But when they're harmful or negative, there should be efforts to rectify. Not doing so means at best, the person is unaware of their problem areas. At worst, what they're doing is intentional. The exact circumstances of what they're doing and how they're doing it might, in some cases, show whether it's intentional or due to lack of awareness.
I'll wrap up with this. As a person, I feel bad for JDW. He has a lot of pressure to deal with at the same time as he's raising an infant with his wife. I've seen some of the godawful things said about him, and even ranted on Twitter last September about one particularly horrible false accusation someone made about him (and another Marvel person). Some things said cannot be justified as "feedback." Some is just terrible people being terrible and making excuses to try to get away with it.
But as an editor, I don't feel bad for the criticism and complaints he gets about his work - or how his views might be influencing that work. It's part of the job. Anyone in his position would have to deal with it. He's been X-Men editor since around March 19, 2018 and senior editor since January 4 this year. He's had time. He's shown patterns. If he doesn't like a criticism, he could do things to fix the problem. And I stress do. Not say. Words are easy. Action is hard. Otherwise, he can let the problem sit or double down on it and deal with the consequences of that decision too. Which again, is part of the job.
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Ghosts of Genosha minicomic focused on Polaris, written by me and drawn by Fin_NoMore.
Polaris 50th anniversary minicomic written by me and drawn by Mlad!
Gallery of Polaris commissions (without NSFW or minicomics)