When should SHAZAM! enter the picture in DC continuity?

[dswynne]

A kid who transforms into a powerful adult is the core premise of the series. Nothing is gained from abandoning it.

Let's run with it then.

"Billy Batson, upon reaching the age of 13 years old, relinquishes his role as the champion of the Wizard. After all, the Wizard, afraid of creating another Black Adam, decides that, from that point on, the power can only be vested into the hands of a child, one who is pure of heart. Thus, like a dream after reading a story book, Billy forgets he was ever the World's Mightiest Mortal, thanks to a Wizard who wants Billy to have a normal life.

Fast forward, a child named "Willie Fawcett", one who is also pure of heart, is chosen to become the next champion of the Wizard. And thus, the cycle continues."

You know, you're right. Having Billy either chose to take the Wizard's place, or relinquish his role as the champion of the Wizard, could work as a story element. Plus, we can make the character diverse, if that is an option. Make the champion a different race or gender...or even a genie-type of character, where the protagonist summons the champion of the Wizard (kind of like Johnny Thunder's Thunderbolt). In fact, you could easily take a page from Marvel Comic's the "Captain Universe" concept, where only children, when there is a great need, can summon the power with a single word...and thus, for that particular situation, the child can become the champion of the Wizard. And when the crisis has been adverted, that power goes to another child, who will deal with another crisis.

Yeah, I think this could work after all...

[Lee]

Or they could keep the character the character.

[Cmbmool]

Let's run with it then.

"Billy Batson, upon reaching the age of 13 years old, relinquishes his role as the champion of the Wizard. After all, the Wizard, afraid of creating another Black Adam, decides that, from that point on, the power can only be vested into the hands of a child, one who is pure of heart. Thus, like a dream after reading a story book, Billy forgets he was ever the World's Mightiest Mortal, thanks to a Wizard who wants Billy to have a normal life.

Fast forward, a child named "Willie Fawcett", one who is also pure of heart, is chosen to become the next champion of the Wizard. And thus, the cycle continues."

You know, you're right. Having Billy either chose to take the Wizard's place, or relinquish his role as the champion of the Wizard, could work as a story element. Plus, we can make the character diverse, if that is an option. Make the champion a different race or gender...or even a genie-type of character, where the protagonist summons the champion of the Wizard (kind of like Johnny Thunder's Thunderbolt). In fact, you could easily take a page from Marvel Comic's the "Captain Universe" concept, where only children, when there is a great need, can summon the power with a single word...and thus, for that particular situation, the child can become the champion of the Wizard. And when the crisis has been adverted, that power goes to another child, who will deal with another crisis.

Yeah, I think this could work after all...

I like this idea as it has a way to make it more diverse in nature of the character of SHAZAM, but also has it feel like Spider-verse where anyone can be SHAZAM as a kid.

[SiegePerilous02]

Nobody wants to read about Billy Batson getting old and having to pay a mortgage. At least, very few people do. They made a movie about him and it looks like he will be gaining a new generation of fans next weekend despite having been around since the 1940s. Let the character be who he was created to be. If you get sick of it, move on to something else and let the next generations enjoy it. Albeit in a different medium, as comics are not appealing to kids these days. Serialized soap opera story telling so these characters can grow along with us so we can take them to the grave with us isn't necessarily the best thing for them.

They were designed for children, to be enjoyed and then moved on from as the kids grew up. They were able to effectively keep the core character and franchise ideas with the New 52/Rebirth comics and the film by upgrading the setting and adding in some new characters naturally, but that's really all that's needed.

Secondly, you look at certain books, such as "The Chronicles of Narnia", the Tolkien Book Series, or even the Harry Potter series. THOSE books had their characters grow and, well, age over time. Some became better from their experience, some worse, but the core essence remain the same. Keeping Billy a child robs the character a plethora of story potential. How does Billy handle his first love? Can he earn the respect of his fellow superheroes, knowing that the "World's Mightiest Mortal" is only a child? In fact, why not just stick Billy onto the Teen Titans- no, sorry about that. Billy isn't a teenager. Stick him to the kids' table.

All I am saying is that Billy and the kids should be allow to age, however long it takes. He starts out as a child when the Justice League forms, around 8-10 year old, when he gets his superpowers. After that, he can progress as the story permits.

The Tolkein, Lewis and Rowling examples aren't as easy to translate to comic books starring characters that need to star in various forms of media and need to exist indefinitely. All those stories had finite story lines, DC comics does not. The film versions probably has a finite arc after a few films and they obviously cannot prevent the child actors from aging, but it's not like film franchises won't be rebooted down the line either. If we get another Shazam film series in a few decades, they will re-cast Billy and co, not come up with new characters.

[Jim Kelly]

I like how Ordway had it that the Rock of Eternity could get you to any place in the Multiverse and Hypertime.

[Konja7]

Let's run with it then.

"Billy Batson, upon reaching the age of 13 years old, relinquishes his role as the champion of the Wizard. After all, the Wizard, afraid of creating another Black Adam, decides that, from that point on, the power can only be vested into the hands of a child, one who is pure of heart. Thus, like a dream after reading a story book, Billy forgets he was ever the World's Mightiest Mortal, thanks to a Wizard who wants Billy to have a normal life.

Fast forward, a child named "Willie Fawcett", one who is also pure of heart, is chosen to become the next champion of the Wizard. And thus, the cycle continues."

You know, you're right. Having Billy either chose to take the Wizard's place, or relinquish his role as the champion of the Wizard, could work as a story element. Plus, we can make the character diverse, if that is an option. Make the champion a different race or gender...or even a genie-type of character, where the protagonist summons the champion of the Wizard (kind of like Johnny Thunder's Thunderbolt). In fact, you could easily take a page from Marvel Comic's the "Captain Universe" concept, where only children, when there is a great need, can summon the power with a single word...and thus, for that particular situation, the child can become the champion of the Wizard. And when the crisis has been adverted, that power goes to another child, who will deal with another crisis.

Yeah, I think this could work after all...

As you mentioned you are a fan of Billy, I'm surprised you want Billy to be replaced for another character and dissapear.

That's another reason why many Billy fans don't want him to grow.

[Buried Alien]

I like how Ordway had it that the Rock of Eternity could get you to any place in the Multiverse and Hypertime.

Wasn't using the Rock of Eternity as a Multiverse transit station an artifact of Pre-COIE? I remember Captain Marvel and Superman using it for that purpose in several issues of DC COMICS PRESENTS during the early 1980s, before COIE.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Jim Kelly]

Wasn't using the Rock of Eternity as a Multiverse transit station an artifact of Pre-COIE? I remember Captain Marvel and Superman using it for that purpose in several issues of DC COMICS PRESENTS during the early 1980s, before COIE.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

That's true. And I guess when Ordway was doing POS, the Multiverse wasn't back yet. But I remember variations of Captain Marvel that we saw--my memory's a bit vague on these points.

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

Billy works better as a Superman/Superhero fanboy so he should appear a few years (3-5) after Superman's debut.

[dswynne]

Or they could keep the character the character.

Yes, and no longer becomes the "World's Mightiest Mortal". In any case, at a certain point, you move the character away from his core concept, as you put it: a child with a pure heart becomes the champion of a mythical Wizard, by becoming the "World's Mightiest Mortal". At that point, Billy is no longer "mortal", or human, for that matter. Which means that he either takes the Wizard's place, or someone else becomes the champion.

Or, as I like to have it, have the classic Captain Marvel, the Marvel Family, and all the Fawcett Comics elements exists as they were on Earth-5, which is still in continuity, while you expand/experiment with those same concepts on the main Earth. You can have your cake and eat it, too. In fact, Earth-1 should be all things Silver Age DC, with no other elements post-Crisis. Cake.

[dswynne]

As you mentioned you are a fan of Billy, I'm surprised you want Billy to be replaced for another character and dissapear.

That's another reason why many Billy fans don't want him to grow.

I was making the argument, in a round-about-way, that if the concept is "a child of pure heart becomes the champion of a fabled wizard" is the main selling point, then there is no need for a Billy Batson in such a role. He would either be an immortal child (which, to be honest, I don't like), or a mere vessel that maintains the concept (in which other children will have a chance at the ultimate "wish-fulfillment" trope). In fact, I'm more upset at so-called fans who wish to send Cap off to a comic book ghetto, not realizing the potential of a character who can interact with a greater environment. That's just lazy thinking to me. And so what if Superman exists in the same world as Cap. That just means that it is up to the writer to differentiate Capt from Superman. And only people with little imaginations think that the pair are too similar to work as a pair. What? How many characters have superhuman strength, speed and endurance? MANY. Clark was born with his powers; Billy, a child, was granted a boon. Superman has extraordinary senses; Cap does not. Superman is steeped in science-fiction; Cap deals with myths, magic and fantasy. If anything, Cap has more similarities with Wonder Woman than Superman, and no one is advocating sending Diana off to a comic book ghetto...

I just want Cap done right and be appreciated for what he is: the ultimate wish-fulfillment character, which is why I've been supportive of this latest iteration of the character, warts and all. That's all.

[dswynne]

Nobody wants to read about Billy Batson getting old and having to pay a mortgage. At least, very few people do. They made a movie about him and it looks like he will be gaining a new generation of fans next weekend despite having been around since the 1940s. Let the character be who he was created to be. If you get sick of it, move on to something else and let the next generations enjoy it. Albeit in a different medium, as comics are not appealing to kids these days. Serialized soap opera story telling so these characters can grow along with us so we can take them to the grave with us isn't necessarily the best thing for them.

For the record, I became a fan because of the 1970s live-action show first, so I never saw the character as strictly being for children to begin with.

[SiegePerilous02]

For the record, I became a fan because of the 1970s live-action show first, so I never saw the character as strictly being for children to begin with.

Is the show a serious take for adults? I haven't watched it, but I heard it's pretty campy. Many of the people I worked with started talking about the show when they saw the ads for the movie, and they didn't give the impression it was a serious show.

It doesn't have to be strictly for children, but these characters were primarily designed with children and families in mind. People clinging to them well into adulthood and expecting them to age along with them and die isn't necessarily the best thing for the characters. It speaks more about the fan's inability to let go more than anything else. Batman was already over 5 decades old when I first "met" him in 1992, and it was all fresh and new to me at the time. The Batman vs. Joker stuff is played out to me now, but that's not Batman's problem, it's mine. The kids meeting Billy, Freddy and Mary at the cinema next week will have something brand new to them even though the characters have been around since the 1940s. If we get sick of eternally teenage Billy, the best course of action is to move on and not expect the character to change when he's timeless and not broken to begin with.

[Buried Alien]

Is the show a serious take for adults? I haven't watched it, but I heard it's pretty campy. Many of the people I worked with started talking about the show when they saw the ads for the movie, and they didn't give the impression it was a serious show.

You need to see it for yourself. Though primarily aimed at a juvenile audience, it had enough thoughtful and socially aware material for even adult viewers to chew on. The show wasn't afraid to tackle such real world concerns such as ethnic and gender discrimination, ecological conservation, and life and death. Some of the issues that the episodes raised remain relevant today, more than forty years later. The special effects were poor and of their time, and the series departed from the original source material in various ways, but even so, I found it a valid take on SHAZAM! that was quite compelling.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Lee]

I was making the argument, in a round-about-way, that if the concept is "a child of pure heart becomes the champion of a fabled wizard" is the main selling point, then there is no need for a Billy Batson in such a role.

There's no need to get rid of Billy Batson. That would only create confusion and splinter the audience.