Why is Spider-Man excluded from The Avengers, X-Men, and FF?

[Kaitou D. Kid]

Spider-Man always did have more in common with DC characters than Marvel...(which is probably why he caught on so big so fast in a time when DC was dominant). Namely the fact that his world pivots around civilian supporting characters. That's an exception in the Marvel Universe rather than a rule. But in DC it's the opposite. In DC every hero has a civilian supporting cast of some kind. And it's understood that each DC goes away in downtime to manage their own city, and own personal stuff.

This is arguably the #1 reason why Spider-Man as an Avenger feels off. Even when Iron Man is in LA and Cap is in Washington DC, they never "feel" that far apart. Superman and Batman feel much further apart even though they live within a shorter distance from one another and are even closer friends than Steve & Tony.

The Avengers are weirdly a half-measure between an ensemble team like the Justice League, and a closely-knit team like the FF and the X-Men.

One of the cool things I love about the original Superman V. The Amazing Spider-Man crossover is that Superman treats Spider-Man with some amount of personal respect. Now of course he does this because he's Superman and a genuinely nice person but it was still a great gesture in that time.

Batman of course would come up with some kind of contingency plans to take out Spider-Man when he first meets him while Superman will be his usual affable self.

At the end of the day I wouldn't want Spider-Man to leave Marvel, but I do think he would have some advantages as a DC character:

1. He would have New York (mostly) to himself.

2. "First independent teen superhero" actually means something in a world where teen sidekicks are the norm. It doesn't mean as much within the MU.

3. Once you get to Miles Morales, you can do a compare-and-contrast between Peter's mentoring and the militaristic mentoring we see from a lot of DC's characters. Peter is someone who would have a non-authoritarian approach to training Miles, but the MU doesn't leave as much room for exploring that as the DCU does.

4. As I just mentioned, Spider-Man would work better in the JL than on the Avengers.

[j9ac9k]

Pardon me for jumping in without reading any of the other posts in the topic, (there are a lot of pages - I did read the OP though) but I am responding to the thread title since I had an immediate reaction -- which is that Spider-Man has always been one of those heroes (Daredevil as well) where they really thrive in the serialized, soap-opera format where they're almost always deeply immersed in a personal storyline that has no room for side adventures. He almost never exists in a status quo where you can imagine he just takes time to be on a team and go off on some adventure, leaving behind some imminent threat that is a danger to him or the people he loves. I don't recall what was going on in his books when Bendis threw him into the Avengers, so I'm not sure how that worked out between the team book and his own titles. I do know that him unveiling his identity in a Big Event needed the devil to say it didn't happen so that it didn't totally derail what was happening his books, even if it meant erasing his marriage.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

This is arguably the #1 reason why Spider-Man as an Avenger feels off. Even when Iron Man is in LA and Cap is in Washington DC, they never "feel" that far apart. Superman and Batman feel much further apart even though they live within a shorter distance from one another and are even closer friends than Steve & Tony.

That's the advantage of fictional cities over real-life ones I suppose. Each city feels like a self-contained world.

If Spider-Man operated in his own fictional city, it would feel like he had his own elevated playground in the way that Batman has all of Gotham City, Superman has Metropolis and so on.

The Avengers are weirdly a half-measure between an ensemble team like the Justice League, and a closely-knit team like the FF and the X-Men.

The DC Universe remember was never concieved as a shared universe. Originally Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, and other DC characters were intended to be standalone self-contained titles. Then you had the idea of crossing them together with first the Justice Society of America in the '40s, and then more definitively the Justice League of the '50s which was "the biggest crossover event in history" for that time period. Whereas Marvel was concieved as a shared universe from the '60s onwards. That created issues when they went with the Avengers. When DC made the Justice League, all they had to do was look at their most famous and well known roster of superheroes and put them in a team. Whereas Marvel decided to create the team without putting together the most famous heroes they had.

At the end of the day I wouldn't want Spider-Man to leave Marvel, but I do think he would have some advantages as a DC character:

1. He would have New York (mostly) to himself.

2. "First independent teen superhero" actually means something in a world where teen sidekicks are the norm. It doesn't mean as much within the MU.

3. Once you get to Miles Morales, you can do a compare-and-contrast between Peter's mentoring and the militaristic mentoring we see from a lot of DC's characters. Peter is someone who would have a non-authoritarian approach to training Miles, but the MU doesn't leave as much room for exploring that as the DCU does.

4. As I just mentioned, Spider-Man would work better in the JL than on the Avengers.

You bring up an interesting thing about teenager. Because the trick of Spider-Man starting out as a teenager yet passing himself as older wouldn't have much meaning because I think DC villains would know from facing the Robins, Nightwing, Batgirl and other Teen Titans, that Spider-Man isn't that old.

[Kaitou D. Kid]

That's the advantage of fictional cities over real-life ones I suppose. Each city feels like a self-contained world.

If Spider-Man operated in his own fictional city, it would feel like he had his own elevated playground in the way that Batman has all of Gotham City, Superman has Metropolis and so on.

To be fair, Spider-Man's version of New York is already kinda his own Metropolis/Gotham. If Marvel was forced to move all their superheroes to different cities and have only one of them left in New York, I guarantee Spider-Man would be the one who stays.

You bring up an interesting thing about teenager. Because the trick of Spider-Man starting out as a teenager yet passing himself as older wouldn't have much meaning because I think DC villains would know from facing the Robins, Nightwing, Batgirl and other Teen Titans, that Spider-Man isn't that old.

Maybe, but also his face is fully covered and he didn't have a mentor next to him. If he showed up around the same time that Dick first became Robin and Wally first became Kid Flash, I don't know if they would have picked up on it.

EDIT: Although you might have a point, since everyone in 616 refers to Miles Morales' Spider-Man as a kid and no one ever explained how they know his age.

[Lukmendes]

That honestly makes me glad that he was excluded.

Characters like that often get used to make everyone else look like douchebags, a problem that they often wouldn't have if they were alone.

That's a writing problem though, 'cause Flash in JL cartoon definitely didn't make the rest into jerkasses.

Spider-Man always did have more in common with DC characters than Marvel...(which is probably why he caught on so big so fast in a time when DC was dominant). Namely the fact that his world pivots around civilian supporting characters. That's an exception in the Marvel Universe rather than a rule. But in DC it's the opposite. In DC every hero has a civilian supporting cast of some kind. And it's understood that each DC goes away in downtime to manage their own city, and own personal stuff.

Thinking of it like that, then Hal Jordan is more like a Marvel character since his supporting cast essentially doesn't exist anymore lol.

Maybe, but also his face is fully covered and he didn't have a mentor next to him. If he showed up around the same time that Dick first became Robin and Wally first became Kid Flash, I don't know if they would have picked up on it.

EDIT: Although you might have a point, since everyone in 616 refers to Miles Morales' Spider-Man as a kid and no one ever explained how they know his age.

Voice and attitude can be an indicator, but it's possible they just know who Miles is lol.

[Agent Z]

Speaking as someone who is a big DC fan, the JL can be just as douchy as the Avengers. Arguably more so as Black Lightning can attest to.

Spoilers for The Other History of the DC Universe

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/SeqtOoL3lN...Tb7WTUbQ=s1600

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/bp5iTpuu69...NLlzhLxg=s1600

spoilers:

And for those who are wondering, this isn't a retcon. It's based on a JL story from 1979 https://comicvine.gamespot.com/justi...ro/4000-19959/

end of spoilers.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

To be fair, Spider-Man's version of New York is already kinda his own Metropolis/Gotham. If Marvel was forced to move all their superheroes to different cities and have only one of them left in New York, I guarantee Spider-Man would be the one who stays.

Spider-Man was made for NY. The entire web swinging doesn't work in a city that doesn't have a skyline as iconic and unique as NYC. New York is also fairly pedestrain friendly and has a solid public transportation system which means that something like Los Angeles where everything is spaced out to accommodate cars and vehicular traffic isn't conducive.

You know Batman only started grappling since the 90s after Tim Burton introduced the grappling hook, and since the Nolan movies, he's started gliding with his cape around the city (though he did do a bit of that here and there before). And the side effect of that is that it made the Batmobile superfluous. Like the third Arkham Game (which I actually love a lot) had the Batmobile and that was controversial to many gamers because aside from specific challengers they shoehorned into the game, it wasn't useful for traversal since Batman actually got around the city faster and easier just by gliding and grappling. The whole grappling thing is an example of how Batman has borrowed from Spider-Man, since the entire aesthetic of grappling and swinging and gliding was something which Spider-Man really introduced to superhero comics.

The other Marvel heroes -- Daredevil is tied to a Hell's Kitchen that no longer exists in real life but did in the '60s through '80s -- it would actually make more sense to move Daredevil to Boston because of his Irish Catholic roots (Boston is "the" Irish Catholic city). Something like a real-life Wilson Fisk did exist in Boston for decades in the form of the mob boss "Whitey" Bulger (inspiration for Jack Nicholson's The Departed). Boston's entire legal-political system and corruption makes a lot of sense to touch on the themes that you have in Matt Murdoch's books.

Someone like Tony Stark can exist basically in any city, the MCU did a smart thing moving him to the West Coast. Reed Richards and the Fantastic Four, and the Baxter Building, can stay in NYC either way since it doesn't really matter because most of the FF adventurers take them into cosmic and higher dimensions and so on.

Maybe, but also his face is fully covered and he didn't have a mentor next to him. If he showed up around the same time that Dick first became Robin and Wally first became Kid Flash, I don't know if they would have picked up on it.

EDIT: Although you might have a point, since everyone in 616 refers to Miles Morales' Spider-Man as a kid and no one ever explained how they know his age.

Miles Morales being known as a kid is because Bendis had that smart-alecky attitude where everyone can sorta instantly suss out details of someone behind a costume. Bendis never really bought into the myth and mystique of a secret identity and constantyl downplayed it. Whereas Stan Lee/Ditko/Romita Sr. upheld it all the time. This panel showing Green Goblin's reaction to seeing Peter Parker is the kind of respect and dignity you don't see anymore.

ASM #39 - Norman finds ID.jpg

I am not sure though if Spider-Man would have lasted as well because DC as a rule has never been comfortable with young superheroes being acknowledged as equals, and aren't comfortable with legacies either.

Thinking of it like that, then Hal Jordan is more like a Marvel character since his supporting cast essentially doesn't exist anymore lol.

It depends again on which version of Hal Jordan you are talking about. Silver Age Hal Jordan was a bore and a lame-o (but so was silver age Iron Man for a long time). The more recent Jordan from *sigh* Geoff Johns' run was done with the aim to add in more details to overcome the issues with the character that got him made into Parallax to start with.

But yeah, Green Lantern as a rule always did struggle with that. The concept of GL is an Earthman in Space whether it's Hal, John, Kyle. So the supporting cast should be aliens and not humans. The Ryan Reynolds Green Lantern movie, one of the many reasons it failed was because of that. It's about a dude who gets a Magic Ring from Space but devotes all its time on earth with human sidekicks and human supporting cast and human drama...and that's just lame. That's why John Stewart should have been the one they went with. Stewart is the one Earth GL who doesn't have a big Earth-centric supporting cast...unlike Hal, and for that matter Kyle who had that girlfriend stuffed into the fridge and a career as an artist.

John Stewart not Jordan should be the face of the Green Lantern brand.

[Frontier]

Thinking of it like that, then Hal Jordan is more like a Marvel character since his supporting cast essentially doesn't exist anymore lol.

Hal's not too far off from Hawkeye.

Voice and attitude can be an indicator, but it's possible they just know who Miles is lol.

Miles also (although it gets kind of confusing with the whole jump to 616 and how that effected his continuity) started out younger than Peter did.

It depends again on which version of Hal Jordan you are talking about. Silver Age Hal Jordan was a bore and a lame-o (but so was silver age Iron Man for a long time). The more recent Jordan from *sigh* Geoff Johns' run was done with the aim to add in more details to overcome the issues with the character that got him made into Parallax to start with.

But yeah, Green Lantern as a rule always did struggle with that. The concept of GL is an Earthman in Space whether it's Hal, John, Kyle. So the supporting cast should be aliens and not humans. The Ryan Reynolds Green Lantern movie, one of the many reasons it failed was because of that. It's about a dude who gets a Magic Ring from Space but devotes all its time on earth with human sidekicks and human supporting cast and human drama...and that's just lame. That's why John Stewart should have been the one they went with. Stewart is the one Earth GL who doesn't have a big Earth-centric supporting cast...unlike Hal, and for that matter Kyle who had that girlfriend stuffed into the fridge and a career as an artist.

John Stewart not Jordan should be the face of the Green Lantern brand.

I feel Carol Ferris and Tom Kalmaku are pretty underrated. Ditto Hal's family.

But I think ideally a GL book should balance the Earth and cosmic stuff. Because it's not like Hal didn't have alien friends (Kilowog, Salaak, Tomar Re, etc.).

[Huntsman Spider]

Speaking as someone who is a big DC fan, the JL can be just as douchy as the Avengers. Arguably more so as Black Lightning can attest to.

Spoilers for The Other History of the DC Universe

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/SeqtOoL3lN...Tb7WTUbQ=s1600

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/bp5iTpuu69...NLlzhLxg=s1600

spoilers:

And for those who are wondering, this isn't a retcon. It's based on a JL story from 1979 https://comicvine.gamespot.com/justi...ro/4000-19959/

end of spoilers.

And let's not forget the time some of them banded together to start violating the minds and memories of their villains in order to protect their identities and the identities of their loved ones, and how that massively backfired years later.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

And let's not forget the time some of them banded together to start violating the minds and memories of their villains in order to protect their identities and the identities of their loved ones, and how that massively backfired years later.

That story comes from Post-Crisis and published around the 2000s, it wasn't done in the classic era.

[Huntsman Spider]

That story comes from Post-Crisis and published around the 2000s, it wasn't done in the classic era.

Fair enough. Still, Black Lightning getting "tested" like that by the Justice League kind of reminds me of how the Avengers did Spider-Man at first, what with making him "prove himself" by capturing the Hulk, especially since both scenarios ended with the hero in question telling his would-be appraisers to go f*** themselves, albeit not quite phrased in those terms.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Fair enough. Still, Black Lightning getting "tested" like that by the Justice League kind of reminds me of how the Avengers did Spider-Man at first, what with making him "prove himself" by capturing the Hulk, especially since both scenarios ended with the hero in question telling his would-be appraisers to go f*** themselves, albeit not quite phrased in those terms.

You are right. There's a similarity there.

[Huntsman Spider]

You are right. There's a similarity there.

Thanks. Good thing they're not doing that as much nowadays, at least to my recollection.

[Frontier]

The Silver Age doesn't always age well :P.

(Unless that Black Lightning one is from the Bronze Age, but it feels a little Silver Age-y).

[pageturner]

I have long thought Spiderman belongs on a team. Not just for commercial reasons although they certainly exist.

He is smart not elite smart but he is high level smart.
strong not elite level but far stronger than most.
Fast not speedster fast but fast.
Agile few better
plus his spider sense.
Also he has worked with pretty much everyone and works fighting bank robbers and aliens.

He certainly fit the Future foundation
I really liked him as an Avenger and the relationship he developed with Stark
He would have worked well in the last version of the Defenders and probably would have been used if not for the netflix show.