Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2022

[Devaishwarya]

It's one thing to hope against hope but...from Jean rejecting the Phoenix, to everything Aaron has and is doing with it currently, to Jean's pointed declaration in XM 11...this X-Editorial Office isn't planning on reclaiming that flaming fowl anytime soon. (Thank the Goddess!)

But if you're patient, perhaps a good writer in the next era will make it a pox on Jean and the X-Men once more.

That said...if-IF! I had to advocate for one person to harness the PF again it would have been the one person who claimed and controlled it for far longer and arguably far better...Rachel.

(It's my head-canon that Claremont did with Rachel in Excalibur what he wasn't "allowed" to do with Jean in XM...and why Rachel had a better run-time with it)

[I'm a Fish]

I hope Jean gets the Phoenix back. It’s the only time I actually care about it. No one else can do the Phoenix pose the way JGS does it.

No one else looks as good in the costume, either. XD

[Starchilde]

just wondering, are here also some queer Jean Grey fans or is this thread mainly dominated by straight cis women? Just curious. no shade...

Im a cis woman, as far as I know we are like 3 or 4 in this thread?

At least in my experience there’s no superhero comics spaces that are dominated by women. Unless is the only-girls groups or feminist geek spaces, of course. But we join those for a reason.

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

I read Knights of X and I know. Tini Howard, the writer of the book said Otherworld brought those powers out in Rachel because it saw that she has been a Phoenix host. Those are Phoenix powers. That development means X-Men writers can now use anything Phoenix enshrined they want to, now that Hickman is GONE.

When Hickman was in the books, we never actually had Jean even reference her past as Phoenix. Now she dies just before she has to kick ass, and just before an event where she has to kick ass and anyone not willfully covering up their eyes can see this.

I want to be clear I am not arguing against you, my reply to both of your posts is for the benefit of others. Interpret things as you will.

I don't feel like you're arguing against me, I just think you don't want to believe my not-that-crazy rantings lol. But the X-office is just not into JG. I'm glad they haven't just nixed her, but I don't believe we can expect much from her character at this time; especially not a powerup when her presence in the Krakoa era has been about going backwards.

Read his F4 comics , see how he wrote Sue and compare it to how Jean Grey has been written since her return in 86
Not a lot of writers wrote Jean well the way he did Sue (some have came close but they never reached his level and unlike his Sue their writing didn’t change the general status quo for Jean)

There is also his opposition to Claremont’s decision to retcon Jean & Logan as mutual lovers which is something he didn’t do to Sue and Namor

I know I might feel negative but I’m not , I’m just saying that Johny Byrne can actually write strong females without falling into tropes traps or messing with his stories when editors don’t want him to do something

Byrne was against Jean being Phoenix. Traditionalist/conservative vibes. Nooooo thank you. Jean would probably be getting Jubilee's baby stories right now.

[Warlioncomics]

I

Byrne was against Jean being Phoenix. Traditionalist/conservative vibes. Nooooo thank you. Jean would probably be getting Jubilee's baby stories right now.

Well Phoenix doesn’t make Jean who she is or an omega mutant + he made Jean a different character because Claremont thought that he was above Marvel and he needed to know that he wasn’t
Which made him mad and made him ruin Jean totally for good (hopefully not for good but there are decades worth of damage for the character in the comics and the movies because of Claremont)

Claremont damaged her more than anyone ever did

[Exodus]

Im a cis woman, as far as I know we are like 3 or 4 in this thread?

At least in my experience there’s no superhero comics spaces that are dominated by women. Unless is the only-girls groups or feminist geek spaces, of course. But we join those for a reason.

thanks. And sorry, "dominated by" was really a weird/miss used expression...

[Devaishwarya]

Tini:"It does, and we’ll see some of that unfold as the story goes on. But the initial concept came from this idea — if Otherworld sort of sees all versions of you, and you’ve been a Phoenix host, well. That might leave more than a bit of magical residue on you."

Nowhere in her response does she admit that Rachel is exhibiting actual Phoenix powers. Rather, it's Otherworld's magical visual manifestation of what Rachel used to be. Operative word being "magical".

The Phoenix and her powers are otherwise fully engaged over in Avengers with Echo.

And besides, if it was actually Phoenix powers...Rachel of all people would know. She seemed very surprised at the flames in the moment.

[Mercury]

I think it's mostly dudes. Straight cis dude, here.

I love Jean with all my queer pitch black hart

A lot of queer/gay/lgbt men but there are all sorts of Jean fans! Despite constant arguing we’re a pretty cool group if I do say so.

I’m a cis woman, if that helps satisfy your curiosity a little.

Gay black male

The straightest woman of all the X-Men who was never queer coded at all, attracts all us queers. lol so typical. I love it.

Queer Marxist Queen Jean Grey!!

Jean Grey is a gay icon. My gay xxx has been obsessed with her since I was 16!

Definitely a gay man here

Im a cis woman, as far as I know we are like 3 or 4 in this thread?

At least in my experience there’s no superhero comics spaces that are dominated by women. Unless is the only-girls groups or feminist geek spaces, of course. But we join those for a reason.

Diversity! It warms my flamboyant, fiery gay heart! ❤️

[Mercury]

Hickman basically focused everything on Magneto, Xavier, and Apocalypse and their works building plans as egged on by Moira. With Hickman off the books and the world building over, other prominent characters are now getting the attention they deserve.

I agree. The thing I have to give him lots of credit for is keeping me invested and enthralled. At times, he's a marvelous writer, and his conceptualizations can be quite breathtaking. That being said, he left much to be desired in terms of character development.

But back to Jean, sheÂ’s a well known and feared character. So she was letting those people know what she could do to them.

As I do her words to Nightmare in X-Men #4, I interpret her speech in X-Men #11 as half part soliloquy, half part self-declaration. She's as much reminding herself as she is telling the gamblers and criminals of Gameworld who she is and what she is capable of. I love these moments to bits and, since I know for a fact that Duggan and other writers have "a lot" planned for her in the upcoming months and years, view these moments as parts of a prologue, if you will, to her individual arc.

SheÂ’s uses her psychic absorption powers to take out Kree armies, Galactus, etc. On better footing.

Yes, preach the truth, WS! I love it when you're affirmative and optimistic. Also, Duggan is aware of and quite literally likes her psionic absorption abilities and when she can do with them.

Actually, you are very wrong here because youÂ’re not including current context. Rachel was made Phoenix by being in Otherworld. While Hickman was in the books, neither Jean nor Rachel were allowed to even say the P word, now Rachel has her Phoenix powers back.

I think Jean may go all out with her pink psionic powers and take the Phoenix name back. This issue both she and the fungus very prominently mention her last as Phoenix. Right before Jean will have to fight the Eternals. Right before Jean likely has to fight Echo. Pretty sure Echo will loose the Phoenix as it does not fit her character as a deaf Street fighter, and she cannot be Phoenix in her shown because her character was all about having this bad ass dead fighter.

So tvubvs are looking for Jean, if you actually take context into account.

I'd be careful in assuming that the Phoenix is returning to mutants, whether to Jean or Rachel, anytime soon. I mean, I can see a scenario in which the fallout from Judgement Day: A.X.E. leads to the Phoenix leaving Echo and going back to Jean or Rachel. However, I can totally see this not happening at all. Lastly, as for the codename, I don't see Jean using Phoenix as a codename unless she manifests it again. We'll see.

As for Jean using her psionic absorption ability once more, I think this is more likely. I'll remind you all again: Duggan liked the tweet in which I asked him to bring back her "pink form" and which also included screenshots of when she first manifested this ability, along with other standout moments during which she used it. It's not like him to like a request tweet like that. Hell, sometimes he doesn't even like tweets praising his work, even when they've generated hundreds of likes and RTs.

I hope Jean gets the Phoenix back. ItÂ’s the only time I actually care about it. No one else can do the Phoenix pose the way JGS does it.

While I've enjoyed Rachel as Phoenix, I agree with you: Unless Jean is an avatar for it, I'm not invested in it.

It's just to kind of explain why some people are saying is not the same thing. Shogo - Jubilee's baby - become an actual dragon when they take him to Otherworld. This is the most extreme case, but other character's powers also work differently there.

Not all characters, though? I guess? It's pretty messy.

It's very messy. And poor Gambit! Anyway, I tried, but I just can't get into that book or Howard's writing. Maybe I need to check out some of her other work.

[Mercury]

Trust me , if they used the Byrne mind set Jean would have been written well a long time ago but they didn’t

You're just pissed at Claremont—and you're not the only one—for establishing an attraction between Jean and Logan. Honestly, her attraction to him doesn't strike me as out of character. Admittedly, I've been intrigued by their pairing, but I wouldn't necessarily say I'm a "Jogan shipper." However, I certainly understand why Logan fell in love with her because Claremont did a great job of establishing this in Uncanny X-Men #98 through #101, before and after they are kidnapped by Lang.

Logan starts off by simply referring to her as "Miss Grey" and, later, "lady," but as the story progresses, and he realizes that not only is she compassionate but also tough and courageous, he gradually falls for her. She isn't afraid to reach out to him when no one else will, but she also isn't afraid to stand up to him and tell him off when no one else will either. This, coupled with the fact that she willingly put her life on the line to save him and the rest of the team, both moved and aroused him.

But that's yet another discussion that has nothing to do with Jean and I've already burnt too much good will here by talking about Daredevil comics with Mercury, so... I'll just leave it at that.

You'll never "burn too much goodwill here," so stop it. I appreciate and look forward to your contributions to this thread, even when I don't agree with them. Frankly, we need them.

Thanks for sharing. Sleep well. o/

Isn't it a beautiful little moment? Warlion seems to think something sexual is being implied in that scene, which I completely disagree with and

Unlike Jean in past films, Wanda actually had a character arc that was followed through multiple films and a tv show over years to get her here. Even if you dont like or agree with what was done with her, there is actual material there to debate and discuss. That wasnt the case for Jean in TLS nor DP

This is very true and why I find comparisons between the two—i.e., their cinematic counterparts—silly and futile. In the FOX X-films, Jean was mostly used as a prop and, later, a woman-gone-mad-with-power plot device. In Dark Phoenix, which I appreciate as a sort of fever dream/What If...? take, they changed her origins and family dynamics in a way that completely changed the character, while also eliminating one of the main cruxes of the Dark Phoenix Saga: The Hellfire Club's perpetrations.

When Hickman was in the books, we never actually had Jean even reference her past as Phoenix. Now she dies just before she has to kick ass, and just before an event where she has to kick ass and anyone not willfully covering up their eyes can see this.

I'm confused. What exactly are you implying here, WallStreeter? That you think Jean is going to die and be reborn as Phoenix in X-Men #12 and right before Judgment Day? Again, I caution you against assuming this only so that you are not disappointed. However, in the off chance that you are right, that would be one hell of a twist!

I know I might feel negative but I’m not , I’m just saying that Johny Byrne can actually write strong females without falling into tropes traps or messing with his stories when editors don’t want him to do something

Byrne is also the person who suggested that Jean be depowered because he thought she was "too powerful" as Phoenix. Claremont and Cockrum simply saw her transformation into Phoenix as part of her natural evolution, i.e., they saw it as her simply reaching her fullest potential as a psi. In a sense, the Dark Phoenix Saga was borne from Byrne and editorial's objection to Jean being powerful. Moreover, Jean's subsequent death was prompted by Byrne drawing a panel—the panel depicting the decimation of the D'Bari people—which Claremont did not write. He later changed the wording to fit the art, not thinking much of it, i.e., he had no idea it would result in Shooter demanding that Jean be punished or that his sarcastic suggestion that they kill her would be accepted and later mandated.

The corruption by the darkhold did indeed happen off-screen. That is what I'm referring to. That is like not showing the Hellfire Club corrupt Jean and just telling us that it happened.

This is exactly why people dislike the Dark Phoenix film.

[Warlioncomics]

[QUOTE=Mercury;6048357]You're just pissed at Claremont—and you're not the only one—for establishing an attraction between Jean and Logan. Honestly, her attraction to him doesn't strike me as out of character. Admittedly, I've been intrigued by their pairing, but I wouldn't necessarily say I'm a "Jogan shipper." However, I certainly understand why Logan fell in love with her because Claremont did a great job of establishing this in Uncanny X-Men #98 through #101, before and after they are kidnapped by Lang.

Logan starts off by simply referring to her as "Miss Grey" and, later, "lady," but as the story progresses, and he realizes that not only is she compassionate but also tough and courageous, he gradually falls for her. She isn't afraid to reach out to him when no one else will, but she also isn't afraid to stand up to him and tell him off when no one else will either. This, coupled with the fact that she willingly put her life on the line to save him and the rest of the team, both moved and aroused him.









You'll never "burn too much goodwill here," so stop it. I appreciate and look forward to your contributions to this thread, even when I don't agree with them. Frankly, we need them.



Isn't it a beautiful little moment? Warlion seems to think something sexual is being implied in that scene, which I completely disagree with and



This is very true and why I find comparisons between the two—i.e., their cinematic counterparts—silly and futile. In the FOX X-films, Jean was mostly used as a prop and, later, a woman-gone-mad-with-power plot device. In Dark Phoenix, which I appreciate as a sort of fever dream/What If...? take, they changed her origins and family dynamics in a way that completely changed the character, while also eliminating one of the main cruxes of the Dark Phoenix Saga: The Hellfire Club's perpetrations.



I'm confused. What exactly are you implying here, WallStreeter? That you think Jean is going to die and be reborn as Phoenix in X-Men #12 and right before Judgment Day? Again, I caution you against assuming this only so that you are not disappointed. However, in the off chance that you are right, that would be one hell of a twist!

Byrne is also the person who suggested that Jean be depowered because he thought she was "too powerful" as Phoenix. Claremont and Cockrum simply saw her transformation into Phoenix as part of her natural evolution, i.e., they saw it as her simply reaching her fullest potential as a psi. In a sense, the Dark Phoenix Saga was borne from Byrne and editorial's objection to Jean being powerful. Moreover, Jean's subsequent death was prompted by Byrne drawing a panel—the panel depicting the decimation of the D'Bari people—which Claremont did not write. He later changed the wording to fit the art, not thinking much of it, i.e., he had no idea it would result in Shooter demanding that Jean be punished or that his sarcastic suggestion that they kill her would be accepted and later mandated.



This is exactly why people dislike the Dark Phoenix film.

It’s not the Logan Jean attraction that is the problem, it’s what came out of it
Sue Storm had a thing for Namor but since Byrne’s era the stories have never focused on Sue as the thing that boys keep fighting for
Meanwhile Jean’s story has been like that since the Claremont retcon , it increased drastically after the animated series aired and it
movies became a thing because mirroring the media is something comic producers love to make

Logan’s attraction to Jean is understandable but Jean being attracted to Logan doesn’t make sense

You may mention something like the Warren/Jean/Scott from Louise Simonson’s x factor but that was done well , Jean wasn’t just something boys are fighting for but a human with struggles , feelings and was badass

[MechaJeanix]

I don't buy into the idea that Rachel was some superior Phoenix host. For starters, when Rachel had the Phoenix (especially in Excalibur) it was more fleshed out as a cosmic entity than when Jean was merged with it originally - because back then Claremont defined it in different ways multiple times -whether it was the theory that Jean became a being of pure psionic energy and brought herself back or the cosmic elements implied in the last issue of the Dark Phoenix Saga. Let's remember that things Jean did as Phoenix was high level tk (like flying five or six people around with her tk - something X-factor Jean could do as well). There was an enormous amount of power creep between what Jean/Phoenix could do and what the Phoenix later became when it was with Rachel (re: all the retcons).

Also, in universe Rachel often mentioned how Jean was powerful with the Phoenix and that she sometimes struggled (see the Excalibur story where Rachel saves some guys on an oil rig she talks about seeing footage of Jean/Phoenix). Jean and presumably Hope found the destiny of the Phoenix by being White Phoenix unlike Rachel. Rachel also had issues with her powers and while didn't go completely dark she had some dark moments where she thought about using excessive force (like protecting Kitty, rebooting the universe while fighting the Beyonder, or wanting to kill Selene).

I find it interesting that there is this idea that the Phoenix takes something away from Jean but people don't say the same for Rachel. I think people just have a bias when it comes to Rachel and the Phoenix. If it is a negative for Jean then it should be for Rachel. You don't see fans saying how we don't know Rachel's true potential because of her connection to the Phoenix or how the Phoenix overshadows her. Fans just simply see Rachel as the Phoenix (and some of us see Jean in a similar way). I just wish people were consistent. I think the Phoenix adds to both characters and I prefer them both to have a connection to it. And if they do not - which they currently don't I am glad that their past connection isn't erased. I like that they reference it from time to time.

Rachel I don't think operated on the same power level as Jean/Phoenix even though she had more cosmic stunts than the original Phoenix years (which I explained above). While I do love Jean without the Phoenix I will always love her with it. Again it calls to the idea of having something greater inside you, or something that you have to wrestle with and control (kind of like sexuality - I think there is reason so many lgbt fans identify with Ms. Grey). The Phoenix costume is Jean's best look and there is something about seeing her in flames that gets me every time.

Since the Phoenix has been mangled so badly.. I am glad they are showing Jean as the powerful omega mutant that she is. I do want to see more of that but I also want to see more of her as a person - as a fully complex character that transcends the "wife/girlfriend" character so many of the fanboys see her as. I fear some of the creators see her that way as well. I am glad in Duggan's run Jean and Scott are often doing separate things. I think that is the best way to show characters that are couples. Rogue and Gambit are also better in separate books with limited interaction.

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

Isn't talking up Rachel as Phoenix just an attempted trolling thing anyway? No one cares about Rachel Phoenix. I imagine even the Rachel fans are more about what separates her from Jean than they are about the copycatting. Hound, Mother Askani.

Anyway, not having issues with cosmic powers is not a story flex. I'm trying to get rid of the writers and editors that want Jean perfect and flawless and non-destructive.

[Grinning Soul]

It's very messy. And poor Gambit! Anyway, I tried, but I just can't get into that book or Howard's writing. Maybe I need to check out some of her other work.

It's not for me either. I feel sorry for the entire cast, including Betsy.

As for Howard's writing, I tried X-Corp because I love Warren and it was even worse.

You'll never "burn too much goodwill here," so stop it. I appreciate and look forward to your contributions to this thread, even when I don't agree with them. Frankly, we need them.

Thanks. That's sweet, but there are actual rules about staying on topic...

Sometimes conversations organically flow somewhere else, so I guess it's forgivable to deviate a little, but I suppose one should at least try to stay on topic.

If those were real life conversations, I'd eventually link all those topics together (if the person who is talking to me would indulge me), but it doesn't really work online and I have to try to remember that.

Isn't it a beautiful little moment? Warlion seems to think something sexual is being implied in that scene, which I completely disagree with and

I think I'll have to disagree with both of you. :P

It's an okay scene, but it feels a bit forced to me. I get the intention, but the execution (drawing parallels between their experience with life and death) doesn't work for me, personally. I'd prefer if they had focused on other aspects of their relationship, what creates the bound between them (that already existed before his death)... But that would have worked better with adult Jean, though...

Anyway, I really don't see anything sexual there.

I guess we could argue something about the art, but considering this is a comic book, characters sometimes are drawn in a sexy/sexualised way even when it's not consistent with the actual mood of the scene.

So... who knows?

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

The funny thing about that Jean Wolvie statue moment is they had Adult Jean pretty much not react to the thought of Logan being back. I think they showed her in one of those 10,000 Wolverine Comes Back tie-in issues and she tries to help for like two seconds and fails (because she's Jean duh) and that was it lmao