IMPERIUS REX! Namor Appreciation

[BishopsJuice91]

I honestly didn't know Vodan was another planet when I read Namor's chapter.

It didn’t click to me either but whatever, I thought he was literally just swimming for a week...

[Reviresco]

I honestly didn't know Vodan was another planet when I read Namor's chapter.

It didn’t click to me either but whatever, I thought he was literally just swimming for a week...

I didn't think it was another planet either after reading. I was advocating for it being a pocket dimension, a bubble, in part because I didn't think a planet could not have an atmosphere, plus all the Earth animals. But now I'm thinking it didn't have one because it was part of the Train? I need to read the Silver Surfer book. Regardless, I'm hoping the Vodani were wrong, cause I'm not a fan of the Atlanteans being space aliens from another planet.

[DragonsChi]

I actually always thought the Atlanteans were an off-shoot of the Kree or vise versa so I'm sorta fine with them being Aliens.

[ImperiusWrecked]

Atlanteans history has always been flowing and changing because Marvel never was able to sit down and actually spell out exactly what happened; the first origin to be explained was that they simply appeared, were always there in the oceans; that the humans were the ones who lost their abilities to be in water or that they had gained the ability to become water dwellers.

The second origin was revealed by Cleito and states that Atlantis had been an empire made up of ten kingdoms with ten kings, they lived in the Golden City and a great cataclysm occurred and Atlantis sank into the sea. In it's golden years it was the most advanced and beautiful place in the entire world, thousands of years ahead of anyone.

The third origin was that Atlantis had been a great city that warred with Lemuria/lemurians and there was that whole Set elder god thing, and magic and war caused it to sink beneath the sea.

Yet another origin was revealed by Neptune (poseidon) in the Hercules comics when Namor and Namora teamed up with him to free Neptune. He states that Atlantis was a a great city but they were too cheap to pay the Amazons for their work and their greed/power caused something to happen where the City sank beneath the sea. It makes the Atlanteans look bad and greedy or foolish and consumed by their power that Atlantis falling was their downfall. The magicians of Atlantis changed them into water breathers.

Ultimate comics also changed Atlantis into being more Egyptian inspired than Greek and also had them warring with the Lemurians.

This is what I recall from reading the comics but I could be wrong in some accounts. As I said, Marvel as never given enough time or care to fully develop and explore Atlantis which is something I am not happy about and one of my main gripes is that they should focus on world building. Atlantis is a wonder and they treat it like trash.

I personally like the Cleito origin the best, I consider it the standard and other accounts to be guesses or speculations since so much was lost over time and it took years for the Atlanteans to recover. If Zdarsky is trying to tell his own version of Atlantis I am very hesitate to even consider it canon, the Vodan to me seem like an offshoot of Atlanteans who discovered a passage to a water world and set themselves up there as 'true' Atlanteans and so much time has passed that the lie to them has become truth and thus when Namor appeared they saw him as a pretender.

If Marvel actually cared about Atlantis they would have given us a solid origin theory but I personally think that Atlantis was the first great and most advanced civilization in the Marvel Universe before any other. SO turning the Atlanteans into Aliens is poorly planned and we DON'T need more 'actually aliens/kree/skrulls were here long before humans and they experimented on them' stuff. That is what the Inhumans are for. The Inhumans could be considered to be cousins to the Atlanteans since they were a set of people (possibly early Atlanteans before the fall) taken in the very early days and experimented on and then dropped on the moon.

Atlantis should only have earthly origins in my honest opinion but I am reserving myself until the comic actually comes out to actually see what happens.

[Reviresco]

I actually always thought the Atlanteans were an off-shoot of the Kree or vise versa so I'm sorta fine with them being Aliens.

Interesting. Was there something that made you think that? It sort of contradicts Jason Latour's idea that Namor represents the Earth, in the Defenders -- which really appeals to me. Namor has always struck me as an elemental force of the planet.

[Reviresco]

Atlanteans history has always been flowing and changing because Marvel never was able to sit down and actually spell out exactly what happened; the first origin to be explained was that they simply appeared, were always there in the oceans; that the humans were the ones who lost their abilities to be in water or that they had gained the ability to become water dwellers.

Marvel has had chances to spell out the underwater Atlantean origins, but they either flub it or retcon it ad nauseum. The first origin, I believe is in FF Annual #1, when a disguised Namor tells the UN that the Atlanteans, like whales, were air breathers who 'went back to the oceans.' Namor has referred to this a few times later, by being thankful the day his ancestors returned to the seas.

There was also the back up features in the 70s Sub-Mariner book, Tales of Atlantis, which ties it into Robert E. Howard's Hyborian / Conan / Kull stories. It doesn't exactly explain the origin of the underwater Atlanteans, but it makes them the spiritual successors, perhaps even reincarnations of the last air breathing rulers of Atlantis. This could also tie into the second origin you brought up -- with some tweeks.

The second origin was revealed by Cleito and states that Atlantis had been an empire made up of ten kingdoms with ten kings, they lived in the Golden City and a great cataclysm occurred and Atlantis sank into the sea. In it's golden years it was the most advanced and beautiful place in the entire world, thousands of years ahead of anyone.

This origin comes directly from Plato, I believe and brings in Poseidon. Of course, it sort of conflicts with the Tales of Atlantis, REH origin, since Poseidon isn't from that age, I believe. Poseidon / Olympian is a post-cataclysm mythology.

The third origin was that Atlantis had been a great city that warred with Lemuria/lemurians and there was that whole Set elder god thing, and magic and war caused it to sink beneath the sea.

I'm not sure about this. Was this from Atlantis Attacks? I think it ties back into the Tales of Atlantis Hyperborian origin, as Atlantis did fall in a war with Lemuria and Set is an REH elder god.

Yet another origin was revealed by Neptune (poseidon) in the Hercules comics when Namor and Namora teamed up with him to free Neptune. He states that Atlantis was a a great city but they were too cheap to pay the Amazons for their work and their greed/power caused something to happen where the City sank beneath the sea. It makes the Atlanteans look bad and greedy or foolish and consumed by their power that Atlantis falling was their downfall. The magicians of Atlantis changed them into water breathers.

I'd forgotten about that. I need to re-read it. I do remember there was allegedly a previous Atlantis / Amazon war.

Ultimate comics also changed Atlantis into being more Egyptian inspired than Greek and also had them warring with the Lemurians.

The less said about Ultimate Atlantis, the better -- though I did like Land's Egyptian cover for it. I don't think it has anything to do with 616 Atlantis.


There's also Hickman's take, which features the Old Atlantean Kings -- the ones that Poseidon helped the blue Atlanteans drive out. fHow

This is what I recall from reading the comics but I could be wrong in some accounts. As I said, Marvel as never given enough time or care to fully develop and explore Atlantis which is something I am not happy about and one of my main gripes is that they should focus on world building. Atlantis is a wonder and they treat it like trash.

Sadly, I have to agree with you fully on this. Though Marvel attempted to do it first, in those back up stories in Subby's book, DC did it better, with Peter David and Esteban Marato's Atlantis Chronicles. SEVEN amazing issues covering Atlantis history.




End of Part 1

[ImperiusWrecked]

There's also Hickman's take, which features the Old Atlantean Kings -- the ones that Poseidon helped the blue Atlanteans drive out. fHow



Sadly, I have to agree with you fully on this. Though Marvel attempted to do it first, in those back up stories in Subby's book, DC did it better, with Peter David and Esteban Marato's Atlantis Chronicles. SEVEN amazing issues covering Atlantis history.

I had forgotten what Hickman had written about it, and I do believe the whole Set thing I was referring to was Atlantis Attacks, I wasn't 100% sure about that but I thought it had something to do with pre-cataclysm Atlantis.

Yes, DC has much better world building for Atlantis and they do really treat their underwater king much better than Namor, I believe Aquaman has always had a comic series running at one point or another with very few breaks in between. Unlike Namor who goes years without any focus unless it's to be used in another teams book and has very little world building and his roster of characters being killed off. Not to mention that Arthur is also in so many cartoons and has more merch etc. and now has a movie. Why they even had a failed tv pilot for Aquaman back when Smallville was a hit.

It's why I always get a bit miffed at anyone who claims that Arthur is better than Namor and Namor fans shouldn't complain when he has had his whole aesthetic and even origins revamped by Aquaman at some point.

In the first Aquaman comic he fights Nazis and tells people that his father had used Atlantean science to help him breath underwater/give him powers. His origin about the Atlantean mother doesn't come in until way later I believe. While Namor was already established with his own origins etc. I dislike it when people say they are the same character because Namor has so much more personality/story than Arthur and the undertones of him being biracial has always been there since the beginning while Aquaman is now using that for the movie. Sorry for this little rant but I always hated how people tend to think that Arthur was first and Namor is the copycat.

[Thor-El]

I had forgotten what Hickman had written about it, and I do believe the whole Set thing I was referring to was Atlantis Attacks, I wasn't 100% sure about that but I thought it had something to do with pre-cataclysm Atlantis.

Yes, DC has much better world building for Atlantis and they do really treat their underwater king much better than Namor, I believe Aquaman has always had a comic series running at one point or another with very few breaks in between. Unlike Namor who goes years without any focus unless it's to be used in another teams book and has very little world building and his roster of characters being killed off. Not to mention that Arthur is also in so many cartoons and has more merch etc. and now has a movie. Why they even had a failed tv pilot for Aquaman back when Smallville was a hit.

It's why I always get a bit miffed at anyone who claims that Arthur is better than Namor and Namor fans shouldn't complain when he has had his whole aesthetic and even origins revamped by Aquaman at some point.

In the first Aquaman comic he fights Nazis and tells people that his father had used Atlantean science to help him breath underwater/give him powers. His origin about the Atlantean mother doesn't come in until way later I believe. While Namor was already established with his own origins etc. I dislike it when people say they are the same character because Namor has so much more personality/story than Arthur and the undertones of him being biracial has always been there since the beginning while Aquaman is now using that for the movie. Sorry for this little rant but I always hated how people tend to think that Arthur was first and Namor is the copycat.

Very true words. I wonder how does the heirs of Bill Everett must feel knowing that Everett's creation gets to be such a success in the big screen with another company and another name because this Aquaman has taken everything cool from Namor and make it as if it was original Aquaman in the eyes of the public. But serves Marvel well for having ignored their character for such a long time.

[Reviresco]

I had forgotten what Hickman had written about it, and I do believe the whole Set thing I was referring to was Atlantis Attacks, I wasn't 100% sure about that but I thought it had something to do with pre-cataclysm Atlantis.

IIRC, the Old Kings were recorded in secret Atlantean histories, as some ancient evil that the Atlanteans only managed to drive out with Poseidon's help. It probably ties into the era when Poseidon actually lived with the Atlaneans, which we also hear about in The Quest, and in Subby #17, I think, where Namor has to return to the South Pole to 'renew' the Sacred Trident.

It's been a while since I read Atlantis Attacks, but I think it ties into the REH Kull and Conan Atlantis and Lemuria with Set and Serpent Crown AND the Deviants, which adds yet another wrinkle / retcon to the Atlantean origins. I think that's where the business of the Atlanteans being a Deviant experiment, or some such awfulness.

Oh, and let's not forget the hot mess of Atlantis Rising. Which made Atlantis the site of Attilan AND Avalon, the birthplace of Morgan Le Fay. O_O

Yes, DC has much better world building for Atlantis and they do really treat their underwater king much better than Namor, I believe Aquaman has always had a comic series running at one point or another with very few breaks in between. Unlike Namor who goes years without any focus unless it's to be used in another teams book and has very little world building and his roster of characters being killed off. Not to mention that Arthur is also in so many cartoons and has more merch etc. and now has a movie. Why they even had a failed tv pilot for Aquaman back when Smallville was a hit.

I don't know. I think, until Geoff Johns started working with the character, Aquaman and Namor were pretty close as far as comic series, but I could be wrong. I'm not that familiar with Aquaman. But yes, DC has always treated Aquaman better than Marvel has treated Namor.

It's why I always get a bit miffed at anyone who claims that Arthur is better than Namor and Namor fans shouldn't complain when he has had his whole aesthetic and even origins revamped by Aquaman at some point.

In the first Aquaman comic he fights Nazis and tells people that his father had used Atlantean science to help him breath underwater/give him powers. His origin about the Atlantean mother doesn't come in until way later I believe. While Namor was already established with his own origins etc. I dislike it when people say they are the same character because Namor has so much more personality/story than Arthur and the undertones of him being biracial has always been there since the beginning while Aquaman is now using that for the movie. Sorry for this little rant but I always hated how people tend to think that Arthur was first and Namor is the copycat.

Only people who haven't read Namor, or know their comic history, would say that sort of stuff.

[Reviresco]

Very true words. I wonder how does the heirs of Bill Everett must feel knowing that Everett's creation gets to be such a success in the big screen with another company and another name because this Aquaman has taken everything cool from Namor and make it as if it was original Aquaman in the eyes of the public. But serves Marvel well for having ignored their character for such a long time.

I'm definitely looking forward to seeing Aquaman ... for all the Namor stuff. ;p

[DragonsChi]

Interesting. Was there something that made you think that? It sort of contradicts Jason Latour's idea that Namor represents the Earth, in the Defenders -- which really appeals to me. Namor has always struck me as an elemental force of the planet.

Well his father was human so that is enough to keep him connected to the earth.

The reason I always thought it was possible for the Atlanteans to have some Kree heritage is for a few reasons. The stuff with the Celestials, the Kree being known for experimentation, stuff in the Kree vs Skrull War, there skin color, and a few other reasons.

Namor back in the day was almost the linchpin to everything Marvel. Alot of roads connected or road back to him. So I just figured somewhere down the line that would too.
I wouldn't at all be surprised if in today's environment that not be the case though.

[DragonsChi]

For those interested Comixology has MASSIVE SALE ! You can get 83% off several collected editions.


https://www.comixology.com/Marvel-Ma...FsbENhcm91c2Vs

[KOSLOX]

For those interested Comixology has MASSIVE SALE ! You can get 83% off several collected editions.


https://www.comixology.com/Marvel-Ma...FsbENhcm91c2Vs

Nice. I was waiting for the next mega sale to finish up my Starlin digital collection and buy the next few Submariner collections.

[Gambit, King of Thieves]

I didn't think it was another planet either after reading. I was advocating for it being a pocket dimension, a bubble, in part because I didn't think a planet could not have an atmosphere, plus all the Earth animals. But now I'm thinking it didn't have one because it was part of the Train? I need to read the Silver Surfer book. Regardless, I'm hoping the Vodani were wrong, cause I'm not a fan of the Atlanteans being space aliens from another planet.

A planet doesn’t need an atmosphere, but to have water and then space with nothing in between is definitely impossible. It would boil off.

[ImperiusWrecked]

Very true words. I wonder how does the heirs of Bill Everett must feel knowing that Everett's creation gets to be such a success in the big screen with another company and another name because this Aquaman has taken everything cool from Namor and make it as if it was original Aquaman in the eyes of the public. But serves Marvel well for having ignored their character for such a long time.

I totally blame Marvel for shelving Namor all the time and it seems like DC is now reaping all the benefits of cool things that Namor did. I am a Everett fan but I always find it sad that he isn't as well remembered as Kirby, Lee, or Ditko, even though Daredevil is a huge hit and the series on Netflix is very popular, and he was a co-creator of that character.

Oh, and let's not forget the hot mess of Atlantis Rising. Which made Atlantis the site of Attilan AND Avalon, the birthplace of Morgan Le Fay. O_O

I don't know. I think, until Geoff Johns started working with the character, Aquaman and Namor were pretty close as far as comic series, but I could be wrong. I'm not that familiar with Aquaman. But yes, DC has always treated Aquaman better than Marvel has treated Namor.

Oh man I really wanted to forget Atlantis Rising, lol, and thanks for the refresher on hickman's take. I tried to get into Aquaman years ago before I knew about Namor and was bored silly, so I knew a few things but of course, it has been like 10 years since a put down Aquaman, which I only tried out for a few months, and I could totally be misremembering some stuff but yeah DC does treat their character far better than Namor.