New Avengers #21 Review (w/spoilers)

[KOSLOX]

Isn't that what Panther has documented using the Bridge?

No what they saw was other Earths being attacked and destroyed by the mapmakers and black priests. I may be wrong (I'll double check when I get home) but I don't think they've actually seen a universal annihilation.

[Mark]

You could instead say that he saved two universes when irresponsible men failed to act. Remember, if one Earth doesn't go, everyone in both realities does. Leaders make decisions with people's lives every day, and they're often to serve the greater good. Not everything has a squeaky clean, easy outcome.

Yea, I keep hearing that, in fact it's the main rallying cry, but I don't agree that this was the only course of action, let alone the right course of action and if this doesn't stop the incursions then Namor and the Illuminati have just murdered a world and it's heroes for nothing.

[KOSLOX]

Yea, I keep hearing that, in fact it's the main rallying cry, but I don't agree that this was the only course of action, let alone the right course of action and if this doesn't stop the incursions then Namor and the Illuminati have just murdered a world and it's heroes for nothing.

It won't. It just stopped this incursion. The problem is that they will have to keep doing this.

Like I said earlier. In order to survive they will all have to become basically like multidimensional Thanosi or mapmakers or blakc priests, just going around and proactively doing this.

[Mark]

And I've seen this sort of story before and I know the historical precedents, but I maintain and will maintain murdering an entire world and it's heroes -when Namor was the one who cut short any discussion that could have produced a different result- represents the darkest villainy and while I don't think that marvel cares about the precedent of making heroes murderers I don't think it's a good one to have.

Not giving the heroes a clean option to go with is whole point of this storyline. Heroic fiction typically gives the protagonist a high road to take, some option that will leave their morality intact when all is said and done. This story, however, denies the protagonists any easy "out." I don't believe it's about Hickman wanting the heroes to kill but rather putting them into a scenario that heroic fiction usually backs away from. If Hickman had allowed for a way around the big choice to destroy a world, it wouldn't be much of a story - just another instance of "Whew, glad we found a way around that!" By activating the bomb, Namor isn't necessarily doing the '"right" thing at all. This is a story about decisions so gargantuan in their consequences that they reside outside of normal definitions of right or wrong.

[Dog]

Yea, I keep hearing that, in fact it's the main rallying cry, but I don't agree that this was the only course of action ...

As the story was presented, it was. Anything else you're making up yourself.

This is a plot point in a fictional story, not defamation of an existing person's character.

[Tony Stark]

Not giving the heroes a clean option to go with is whole point of this storyline. Heroic fiction typically gives the protagonist a high road to take, some option that will leave their morality intact when all is said and done. This story, however, denies the protagonists any easy "out." I don't believe it's about Hickman wanting the heroes to kill but rather putting them into a scenario that heroic fiction usually backs away from. If Hickman had allowed for a way around the big choice to destroy a world, it wouldn't be much of a story - just another instance of "Whew, glad we found a way around that!" By activating the bomb, Namor isn't necessarily doing the '"right" thing at all. This is a story about decisions so gargantuan in their consequences that they reside outside of normal definitions of right or wrong.

Exactly. This is what it was building to since issue #1. Sometimes there is no clean way out. That's what Hickman's been writing about the whole time.

[Mark]

Well it won't. It just stopped this incursion. The problem is that they will have to keep doing this.

How many other innocent people have to die?

[Mark]

As the story was presented, it was. Anything else you're making up yourself.

This is a plot point in a fictional story, not defamation of an existing person's character.

It's not doing the character of the Illuminati any good.

[KOSLOX]

How many other innocent people have to die?

Billions mulitplied by however many universes there are.

[People Of The Earth]

It is a lot easier to say you are willing to pull the trigger than it is to actually pull it.

They all thought they could. Only Namor and Strange actually could

True, of course.

Doesn't make their last-minute bailing any less disappointing though.

I think Strange was only willing because it involved sacrificing himself. That's why he's pissed, now he has to live with having used the Blood Bible.

Also true.

The only person we know, or at least assume we know, who has witnessed an incursion taken to the end is Hyperion (and maybe Scientist Supreme). What the illuminati saw was other beings destroying various Earths before that could happen. They really don't know for sure what they have been told is true. Hyperion managed to survive an incursion, maybe they don't destroy the other universes at all, they could be shifting to an alternate plane.

The problem here is an unreliable narrator.

I disagree with you here.
There's no reason to believe what they witnessed through Richards' machine was false, twicked or bing tampered with by a third party. The fact it showed them their encounter with the Great Society is further proof the machine wasn't unreliable.
Also, Hyperion is basically a 616-Superman - it wouldn't be the first time a Superman survived the end of its universe... and I'm only half-joking with the reference here.
But maybe you are right and the universes are being shifted, stolen or stockpiled somewhere...Swan is definitely whitholding information atm, if not about how solving the Incursions, at least about her real motives and what his the Swans' gain in participating in other worlds' destruction.

[Mark]

Billions mulitplied by however many universes there are.

Well sooner or later even marvel's bloodlust will be slated. In the meantime I look forward to some future story where some survivors from this world come looking for the Illuminati, though I think this'll fizzle out like World War Hulk did.

[hawkeyefan]

Yes that's part of the problem though, the author never allowed for any other possibility even possiblities that would have made sense in the story. He just wanted the heroes to kill. This won't stain them forever as in the mu bad deeds never linger, but consider this everyone who's saying Namor did the right thing, he's just singlehandedly killed more people than the Red Skull and all of the other supervillains combined and he did it with the help of people who once would have given their souls to stop such and act. If that's Hickman's definition of heroism I cringe to think what his definition of villainy is.

I don't think it's Hickman's definition of heroism. Don't forget, he wrote Cap lasting the Illuminati much as you are, and on Twitter he even said that Cap had the advantage of being right.

I don't think it's a definition of heroism that he's going for so much as an examination of the term. How important is it? At what point are morals meaningless?

The only person we know, or at least assume we know, who has witnessed an incursion taken to the end is Hyperion (and maybe Scientist Supreme). What the illuminati saw was other beings destroying various Earths before that could happen. They really don't know for sure what they have been told is true. Hyperion managed to survive an incursion, maybe they don't destroy the other universes at all, they could be shifting to an alternate plane.

The problem here is an unreliable narrator.

Very true. And over in Avengers, Future Franklin seemed to indicate there was some other solution to the problem. And even Beast and Banner had a conversation like that a couple issues ago.

There may be a lot more that we don't know going on.

[Dog]

It's not doing the character of the Illuminati any good.

They're not real. They're fictional constructs to help tell stories.

[Mark]

I don't think it's Hickman's definition of heroism. Don't forget, he wrote Cap lasting the Illuminati much as you are, and on Twitter he even said that Cap had the advantage of being right.

I don't think it's a definition of heroism that he's going for so much as an examination of the term. How important is it? At what point are morals meaningless?

If morals are only important to have when they are easy to have then what is the point of having them at all?

[Mark]

They're not real. They're fictional constructs to help tell stories.

So when the next Submariner title comes out "Namor, Murder!" you'll think of him as a good guy?