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  1. #16
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    I only ever hear this line of thinking from creators, never from readers or fans - except some fans of James Bond movies. This was the thinking that led to One More Day and the New 52 over at DC. In general I find it toxic and that it goes against what Marvel stands for. Peter Parker graduated high school just a few uears after he was created. In the early 2000s every Batman event was exactly the same - Batman is a huge bat-jerk to his friends and allies and learns to be nicer at the end, and fans hated it. We notice these things. The whole point of the Claremont era was that the characters evolved and changed - and the problems started when editorial forced many of those changes to be undone to revert to an older status quo. One of the reasons the Krakoa era seemed so exiting was because it brought the promise of real change. If readers wanted truly static comics then DC would have continued to dominate the industry in the 60s and onward and we'd still be reading the sort of Batman and Superman comics they produced in the 1950s.

  2. #17
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    LOL, that's one of the worst takes I've heard in a while, and I visit this board every day. Perpetually keeping Peter Parker as a hapless, broke twenty-something with no serious romantic prospects (or the potential for his life to mature in any way, at all, ever) makes him less relatable, not more. People loved Peter and MJ's marriage, it didn't take away from the character, it evolved him. JDW makes even less sense saying this in 2021 when we have Miles, Spider-Gwen, and the rest of the legacy heroes to satisfy the teenage self-insert role. Into the Spider-Verse's portrayal of older Peter mentoring younger Miles being so successful proves there's a lot of value in letting the characters grow and develop over time. JDW is, to be diplomatic about it, misguided.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingdom X View Post
    This. I had to laugh when everybody was going crazy because, "Clark Kent loves Lois Lane and can't kiss dudes!" when the story was about his son, which you would know if you were even moderately aware of what was going on in comics for the past couple years.
    And comic book readers get a bad name for it whereas most people complaining about this don't even read the comics or that it's actually the Son of Superman and not clark.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nyssane View Post
    I mean, Marvel and DC have definitely tried to keep them relevant, but at some point you just realize you're fighting a losing battle. It's the same reason why action figures are now only bought buy people in their 30's. Kids these days have Fortnite and Minecraft and other technology-based platforms that are significantly outpacing any of the older stuff.
    They can do more IMO, aside from making the whole format of comics more accesible and easier and cheaper to get into maybe show an add for them for like 10 seconds before a new movie, the sales would quadruple at the minimum IMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by sunofdarkchild View Post
    I only ever hear this line of thinking from creators, never from readers or fans - except some fans of James Bond movies. This was the thinking that led to One More Day and the New 52 over at DC. In general I find it toxic and that it goes against what Marvel stands for. Peter Parker graduated high school just a few uears after he was created. In the early 2000s every Batman event was exactly the same - Batman is a huge bat-jerk to his friends and allies and learns to be nicer at the end, and fans hated it. We notice these things. The whole point of the Claremont era was that the characters evolved and changed - and the problems started when editorial forced many of those changes to be undone to revert to an older status quo. One of the reasons the Krakoa era seemed so exiting was because it brought the promise of real change. If readers wanted truly static comics then DC would have continued to dominate the industry in the 60s and onward and we'd still be reading the sort of Batman and Superman comics they produced in the 1950s.
    This, this is always been a (bad)writers/corporation prespective, i.e. milking everything dry.I mean hickman(a writer worth his salt) wanted to move on but others didn't and wanted to milk this stage dry for all it was worth.

    Also why they keep making legacy characters because they will sell better instead of making OC's which take actual effort.They also sell it as being progressive whereas the truth most of legacy characters are following in the footsteps of straight white men.None of the recent legacy characters would be anything if they weren't riding the coattails of the originals.You want to make people feel represented, have diverse character make their own mark like Black Panther for example, a diverse character whose footsteps are followed by others instead of following others.

    Quote Originally Posted by davetvs View Post
    LOL, that's one of the worst takes I've heard in a while, and I visit this board every day. Perpetually keeping Peter Parker as a hapless, broke twenty-something with no serious romantic prospects (or the potential for his life to mature in any way, at all, ever) makes him less relatable, not more. People loved Peter and MJ's marriage, it didn't take away from the character, it evolved him. JDW makes even less sense saying this in 2021 when we have Miles, Spider-Gwen, and the rest of the legacy heroes to satisfy the teenage self-insert role. Into the Spider-Verse's portrayal of older Peter mentoring younger Miles being so successful proves there's a lot of value in letting the characters grow and develop over time. JDW is, to be diplomatic about it, misguided.
    All this

  4. #19
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    So predictable. I really called this guy out from his first interview. He's a dinosaur stuck in the past. A past that only benefits straight white male characters where nothing can change from how it was decades ago. He really needs to go. Everything he says he says makes me feel dirty, like a car salesman is trying to scam me.

    I guess this means we'll get a book of the original 5 being teens again before we ever get another New XMen book.

  5. #20
    Astonishing Member Sandmans_Raven's Avatar
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    I wish characters were allowed to age and progress as well. Characters I have enjoyed in the past like Spider-Man and Nightwing, I've lost some enthusiasm for because they are stuck in a state of being young/single/childless. There's nothing wrong with that, but I enjoy a superhero's alter-ego as much as I enjoy the superhero, so reading about their same personal problems gets stale after awhile. It was fun to read them when I was younger, but as I've gotten older, I've stopped paying that much attention to what they're doing.

    Both of those characters have had a series recently (set in an AU) where they were older and had a kid and both were the most interesting books I've read with them in years. It was so cool to be able to see what these characters would be like as spouses and parents. To see where they succeeded and where they failed. I'm not a regular Dragon Ball watcher, but did people quit watching the show or suddenly dislike Goku when he got married and had a kid? No.

    I think that's why I have always liked the X-Men, even as a kid. They felt more "adult" to me and as I get older, I relate to more of the things the characters deal with.

    So, I really don't understand this concept of making it so characters can't age or progress and I definitely don't believe that kids will all of a sudden stop caring about a character just because they are a parent or older in general.

    I would be interested to see what the demo is that they've been marketing to recently. I can't imagine some of the higher concept books like HoX/PoX being a big seller for younger audiences.
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  6. #21
    Astonishing Member Kingdom X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandmans_Raven View Post
    I wish characters were allowed to age and progress as well. Characters I have enjoyed in the past like Spider-Man and Nightwing, I've lost some enthusiasm for because they are stuck in a state of being young/single/childless. There's nothing wrong with that, but I enjoy a superhero's alter-ego as much as I enjoy the superhero, so reading about their same personal problems gets stale after awhile. It was fun to read them when I was younger, but as I've gotten older, I've stopped paying that much attention to what they're doing.

    Both of those characters have had a series recently (set in an AU) where they were older and had a kid and both were the most interesting books I've read with them in years. It was so cool to be able to see what these characters would be like as spouses and parents. To see where they succeeded and where they failed. I'm not a regular Dragon Ball watcher, but did people quit watching the show or suddenly dislike Goku when he got married and had a kid? No.

    I think that's why I have always liked the X-Men, even as a kid. They felt more "adult" to me and as I get older, I relate to more of the things the characters deal with.

    So, I really don't understand this concept of making it so characters can't age or progress and I definitely don't believe that kids will all of a sudden stop caring about a character just because they are a parent or older in general.

    I would be interested to see what the demo is that they've been marketing to recently. I can't imagine some of the higher concept books like HoX/PoX being a big seller for younger audiences.
    There's also the problem that their definition of "young audience" seems to be only one type of young person (and I think we know who JDW is catering to). I'm sure there are plenty of young parents that could relate to Spider-Man balancing parenthood, his career, and financial struggles.

    Also like you said, young people who are actually invested in these characters aren't so shallow that they'd drop a comic because Peter has a kid or Storm celebrates her 30th on panel.

  7. #22
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
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    The "relatability" of any superhero character is highly debatable for as many different reasons as there are different readers.

    The problem is these creators are trying telling us who we should relate to.
    Here's a gay character...the gays must relate to that.
    Here's Peter Parker...young "everyday" genius nerds must relate to him (and want to be like him because he has the hot, model girlfriend)
    All that is such a crock of outdated-thinking ****. Because a lot of readers of various ages (mainly adults) have many different favourite characters. I'm fifty and I like 95% of the superheroes/CB characters I read regularly...I have my faves, but they are as varied as they come.

    The target audience should be "readers who like comic books".
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  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devaishwarya View Post
    The "relatability" of any superhero character is highly debatable for as many different reasons as there are different readers.

    The problem is these creators are trying telling us who we should relate to.
    Here's a gay character...the gays must relate to that.
    Here's Peter Parker...young "everyday" genius nerds must relate to him (and want to be like him because he has the hot, model girlfriend)
    All that is such a crock of outdated-thinking ****. Because a lot of readers of various ages (mainly adults) have many different favourite characters. I'm fifty and I like 95% of the superheroes/CB characters I read regularly...I have my faves, but they are as varied as they come.

    The target audience should be "readers who like comic books".
    Agreed,
    Spider-man in particular is supposed to be a "anyone can wear the mask" and relates to everyone, yet they main point of Miles is Black Spider-man and that we have a Spider-man that looks like us.Even though anyone can wear the mask we should think Miles "is our Spider-man" because he's of the same race.It's such a surface level and backwards thinking.In comparison to Miguel whose Irish/Mexican but we are never told he's our Spider-man because of that, he just happens to be Irish/Mexican and as a POC I much prefer the latter.At the end of the day we're all people and have much more to us than race and gender.After all people don't like/relate to Peter because he's white, He's even bigger in India than in the US because of who he is as a character.

    Not to say diversity shouldn't be done or Miles isn't important , but if shouldn't be the main point of your character IMO.
    Last edited by Spiderfan001; 10-25-2021 at 10:05 AM.

  9. #24
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    It just seems to circle around to the old problem that these characters have been around for decades, and they can't let them get TOO old unless they decide to retire someone. (And that never seems to be permanent.) Meanwhile, the new, younger characters are either not allowed to age, or they somehow age 10 years while the original adults are inexplicably still in their late 20's. I totally understand not wanting to lose the older characters with an established fan base, but they should absolutely be allowed to grow and change. Get married, have kids, etc. And let a few people other than the designated "older" mutants be over 30. It's not gonna be the end of the world of Cyclops or Beast or Jean or Emma break 30. They won't immediately wither away and die. Of course, Krakoa and the resurrections seems like a convenient excuse to de-age a lot of people, since they are supposedly coming back in peak physical condition.

  10. #25
    Mighty Member Malachi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AppleJ View Post
    So in X-Men Monday today, JDW states:

    "But when you look at a single character like Superman, I think it’s kind of a bummer that Superman has aged so much that he’s now a married guy with a son. And I know that some people want Spider-Man to be that and I’m glad he’s not because it changes the character from being someone you can relate to into someone who is like your dad. Now Superman is a weird character actually to do this with because not everybody relates to him in the first place. He’s kind of aspirational to begin with.

    So let’s say Spider-Man. He’s an everyman — you can relate to him and his problems. A Spider-Man who is married, growing up with a kid — of course, I can relate to that because I’m a married grown-up with a kid. But I don’t know that that’s fair to the world and to culture, to say I want Spider-Man to grow up with me. I think keeping Spider-Man for new generations to continue to read about is important and good and Marvel has done it in a way that tries to have it both ways to say we’re going to keep everything in this nebulous Marvel time so readers can come in and the characters are still young and vital in many ways. But also, we’re not going to reboot the universe so that people who do want to keep reading from 10 years ago, from 20 years ago, from 30 years ago — all those stories that you read happened, you just have to like squint your eyes a little bit sometimes."

    I guess my thought is that X-Men readers aren't necessarily made up primarily of teen - young 20s white males anymore? So why are stories being marketed as if they are? Why is teen - 20s white male Spiderman the "every man" we are meant to relate to, basically forever? Because I sure don't, even when I was that age. New Spiderman audiences have options like Miles Morales, Ben Reilly, Ghost Spider, Silk, etc.
    Ah JDW. I wonder do Marvel hire guys like him for his views or are they a product from him having the job?

    When I started reading comics seriously I was 8 or 9. I wasn't reading about characters who where 8-9. Marvel has gone down a slippery slope with this age question. Peter Parker can have a baby and a wife becasue that is what most of us sees a character like Peter Parker having. The same way that a character like Cyclops typically have been seen as a character who wants and enjoys those things. To push the Peter Parker angle more they undid the marriage to tell stories that where even further from the everyman angle. Marvel is full of BS and JDW seems to be on the same train.

    Doesn't fill me with confidence seeing that kind of mindset in charge of the X-men line.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spiderfan001 View Post
    Agreed,
    Spider-man in particular is supposed to be a "anyone can wear the mask" and relates to everyone, yet they main point of Miles is Black Spider-man and that we have a Spider-man that looks like us.Even though anyone can wear the mask we should think Miles "is our Spider-man" because he's of the same race.It's such a surface level and backwards thinking.In comparison to Miguel whose Irish/Mexican but we are never told he's our Spider-man because of that, he just happens to be Irish/Mexican and as a POC I much prefer the latter.At the end of the day we're all people and have much more to us than race and gender.After all people don't like/relate to Peter because he's white, He's even bigger in India than in the US because of who he is as a character.

    Not to say diversity shouldn't be done or Miles isn't important , but if shouldn't be the main point of your character IMO.
    Exactatiously.

    That should never be the first selling point of any character new or old.

    Plus...
    It's one thing to develop a character(s) to embrace the current social (diversity, for example) mindset in the hope that it will appeal to a particular subset of your readers but...you first have to know if that subset is actually 1) buying/reading comics and 2) if they are, are they interested in that character.
    Further to that point...I will ask...just how well did their Voices books sell? And did they meet the sales or reader interest expectations?
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  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devaishwarya View Post
    The "relatability" of any superhero character is highly debatable for as many different reasons as there are different readers.

    The problem is these creators are trying telling us who we should relate to.
    Here's a gay character...the gays must relate to that.
    Here's Peter Parker...young "everyday" genius nerds must relate to him (and want to be like him because he has the hot, model girlfriend)
    All that is such a crock of outdated-thinking ****. Because a lot of readers of various ages (mainly adults) have many different favourite characters. I'm fifty and I like 95% of the superheroes/CB characters I read regularly...I have my faves, but they are as varied as they come.

    The target audience should be "readers who like comic books".
    This...and God help me, I am even older...and female...so no relatable characters for me.

    One issue not mentioned, is the reduction in younger generations reading / buying printed works ie magazines, newspapers etc and I think this feeds into the issue of the apparent 'unpopularity' of printed comics - interesting to find out how successful Hickman's substack thingy is? I dip in and out of comics depending on how my fav character is doing but I really enjoyed Hickman's run / ideas and I'm bummed that the writers decided to ditch his ideas (for now) and continue with the new status quo - beginning, middle and end sounded so good. There is a deffo issue with newbie's jumping on in comics but it's a balancing act - attracting new readers whilst retaining existing readers.

    Not entirely convinced JDW knows what he's doing.

  13. #28

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    I'm black, my favorite character in comics has always been this grumpy ass white dude named Wolverine. I don't relate to him nor Spider-Man(or any other character for that matter). I don't know what X-Men's target audience is currently... Twitter perhaps? Marvel comics in general seem to lack direction these days and seem more focused on not upsetting those cancel culture folks.

  14. #29
    Julian Keller Supremacy Rift's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devaishwarya View Post
    Further to that point...I will ask...just how well did their Voices books sell? And did they meet the sales or reader interest expectations?
    Pride sold like 60k, and Identity sold about 40k. They're also doing a second round this year.
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  15. #30
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    So, i'm gonna have my own take here.
    Aging a Character is both a good And bad thing.
    You want to be careful with it And not overdo it for some characters.
    Keeping Peter at mid 20's to early 30's is beneficial to both Marvel And the reader as him being 40/50 would be way too old for the character.
    Keeping him broke And unmarried however is where the problem lies.
    Okay, so I don't care about him and MJ being married, i'd much rather they be together than not however.

    Would giving Peter a kid cause issues in the main continuity? Yeah, it's why it's usually kept to AU comics.

    I think part of the reason why folks like the pre OMD era so much is because it had strong writers.
    JMS, Millar, Peter David and Jenkins were all solid writers and probably the last batch of great Spider-man writers we had.
    If you took nearly any mid 90's comic, there would probably be a very different reaction.

    I'm not even against the idea of spitting mj And Peter, the problem was that it was done in such an unsatisfying way that it destroyed the comics for a good long time, And the fact Marvel are so against referencing it But would rather tease just adds salty the wound.

    I do think once we get the next generation of editors, things will be different And they would be more open to progressing Peter

    Still it's telling that they aged Miles up to 18 in that there's very little you can with that. Everything you could have said about High School Spider-man has been done

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