Madara vs. Son Goku

[UltraMagnetic]

All the attacks in Naruto put together times 100 would not even come close to a moon buster (Earth's moon, which has surface area comparable to Asia and mass around 1/81 of the entire planet) , which someone on Goku's tier did with a casual gesture (yes, there was a time skip, but not one with a major power jump, and that Piccolo had spent the day draining his power significantly up to that point and had earlier that day shown that he required significant charge time to use his strongest attacks), so in all likelyhood Madara won't even remotely be able to handle that kind of firepower without exploding. Not to mention that Goku has shown that he can charge up a full power blast and then insta-fire it later on, and he might have trouble actively absorbing an attack fast enough to hit the moon almost instantly (Not the Naruto-verse Moon, which seems to be very close to the Earth, ala Soul Eater) being blasted at him from an inch from his face, for instance.

I'm not sure what the power numbers are at the end of DragonBall and the start of Z but I know that it's a five year jump. Five years of training for Goku and/or Piccolo would result in a big boost in power. So I wouldn't use feats in Z (moon buster) for their younger versions. What's Goku's most powerful energy blast at the time the OP stated? I don't remember anything close to moon busting before Dragonball Z. There's also the Orbs of Truth which could negate ninjutsu (again if we can treat Ki like chakra)

Goku himself is able to sense ki on a global scale, which kinda puts him hilariously beyond anyone in Naruto except maaaaaybe Naruto himself, though I don't think that any chakra sensor other than Naruto was actually in the vicinity when Madara was using the shadows, and he was able to sense their existence and position just fine. Heck, sensing evil intention is one of the things that makes Naruto's chakra sensing super special awesome, and its something that Goku also has the ability to do. And he's only one to two arcs shy of learning how to become a more powerful telepath (though with no known offensive feats with it) than any of the Yamanakas as well.

Again, the only reason was Naruto was able to sense Madara's shadows was due to the Senju power he got from the Sage of Six Paths (Sasuke can actually see them with his Rinnegan). Naruto has to be in Sage Toad Mode in order to gain heightened chakra sensory abilities. He has to be in Nine Tails cloak mode to pick up on negative emotions. He wasn't using any of those abilities when he was fighting the shadows. You need the power of the Sage of Six Paths in order to sense/detect them.

[Hazard]

On the moonbusting.

It happens years after Dragon Ball ends. At least 5 since Gohan is 4.

Roshi does it earlier, but he's much better at the ki control thing than the others to the point of having a semi-transformation.

It's not a casual blast. The hand gesture Piccolo used for the moon busting is something he (and later Gohan) use for their big moves.

At the point of the last tournament, the strongest thing is Piccolo's island buster. Granted he should probably be above that.

[Len Ikari145]

he also showed concern for the saibamen

"Vegeta Jr., NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!"

[The Drunkard Kid]

On the moonbusting.

It happens years after Dragon Ball ends. At least 5 since Gohan is 4.

Roshi does it earlier, but he's much better at the ki control thing than the others to the point of having a semi-transformation.

It's not a casual blast. The hand gesture Piccolo used for the moon busting is something he (and later Gohan) use for their big moves.

At the point of the last tournament, the strongest thing is Piccolo's island buster. Granted he should probably be above that.

During those 5 years, without even taking into consideration supplementary info that shows that they have relatively tiny power jumps during that particular time skip, they did not get a drastic power boost compared to any of the prior or subsequent time skips (like the less than a year later where they were stomping Raditz level monsters like they were tin cans), and hand gesture in question was an open palm.

Even discounting the fact that he had used a ton of power that day, he fired that blast with zero charge time (after showing twice over that same day, as well as repeatedly in his fights against Goku that he actually needs significant charge time for his big attacks and that he's able to highly concentrate the power of his attacks to do relatively Tony amounts of collateral damage for the amount of oomph they're packing).

Roshi was more skilled than Goku, overall, but I don't see how that would give him more powerful attacks than a guy who who wasn't drained at all from firing attacks that were making Roshi practically wet himself from their sheer power. Not to mention that, when it came to the Kamehameha, 23rd Budokai Goku had done more with it than Roshi ever did and was pulling out tricks that Roshi never ever thought of during that fight in particular.

So yeah, I think it's safe to say that 23rd Budokai Goku's output is higher than the guy he was explicitly many times stronger than an arc ago, and at least comparable to the uncharged effort of a guy that didn't get a super huge power boost from a period where he was more or less dead even with him, especially since he was still stronger than the latter guy after 5 years of staying more or less in one place with no significant training partners, challenges, or new teachers. Goku and Piccolo kept in shape and got stronger, but they were so far above the curve that they couldn't really go further until they got to train with the likes of Gohan and Kaiou-sama.

[The Drunkard Kid]

I'm not sure what the power numbers are at the end of DragonBall and the start of Z but I know that it's a five year jump. Five years of training for Goku and/or Piccolo would result in a big boost in power. So I wouldn't use feats in Z (moon buster) for their younger versions. What's Goku's most powerful energy blast at the time the OP stated? I don't remember anything close to moon busting before Dragonball Z. There's also the Orbs of Truth which could negate ninjutsu (again if we can treat Ki like chakra)



Again, the only reason was Naruto was able to sense Madara's shadows was due to the Senju power he got from the Sage of Six Paths (Sasuke can actually see them with his Rinnegan). Naruto has to be in Sage Toad Mode in order to gain heightened chakra sensory abilities. He has to be in Nine Tails cloak mode to pick up on negative emotions. He wasn't using any of those abilities when he was fighting the shadows. You need the power of the Sage of Six Paths in order to sense/detect them.

Is there any proof that regular sensors can't detect him? Because no Sensor ever fights the form of Madara that had those shadows, especially not one anywhere near as good at it as Goku is. Not to mention that they're not intangible so Goku should be able to sense them just fine using the air pressure if they are somehow devoid of life energy, especially since they're likely slower than him as well.

[Bluekey]

Goku's got the speed and the firepower.

Also worth noting is that Goku can feel the sudden vibrations in the air and avoid attacks. Even if he can't sense the life-force.

[abmccray]

During those 5 years, without even taking into consideration supplementary info that shows that they have relatively tiny power jumps during that particular time skip, they did not get a drastic power boost compared to any of the prior or subsequent time skips (like the less than a year later where they were stomping Raditz level monsters like they were tin cans), and hand gesture in question was an open palm.

Even discounting the fact that he had used a ton of power that day, he fired that blast with zero charge time (after showing twice over that same day, as well as repeatedly in his fights against Goku that he actually needs significant charge time for his big attacks and that he's able to highly concentrate the power of his attacks to do relatively Tony amounts of collateral damage for the amount of oomph they're packing).

Roshi was more skilled than Goku, overall, but I don't see how that would give him more powerful attacks than a guy who who wasn't drained at all from firing attacks that were making Roshi practically wet himself from their sheer power. Not to mention that, when it came to the Kamehameha, 23rd Budokai Goku had done more with it than Roshi ever did and was pulling out tricks that Roshi never ever thought of during that fight in particular.

So yeah, I think it's safe to say that 23rd Budokai Goku's output is higher than the guy he was explicitly many times stronger than an arc ago, and at least comparable to the uncharged effort of a guy that didn't get a super huge power boost from a period where he was more or less dead even with him, especially since he was still stronger than the latter guy after 5 years of staying more or less in one place with no significant training partners, challenges, or new teachers. Goku and Piccolo kept in shape and got stronger, but they were so far above the curve that they couldn't really go further until they got to train with the likes of Gohan and Kaiou-sama.

- Piccolo's "open palm attack" is the Explosive Demon Wave, which he used to island bust against Goku when younger in the Budokai

- Roshi's kamehameha was the "max power kamehameha," which he can't even do in a fighting situation because it takes minutes of REAL TIME to fire off, which is hundreds or more times the time it takes for anyone to charge up ki attacks later in the series. The only thing close to this goku does is the Chou kamehameha later in the series, which is a relatively long charge, but still an instant to fire off.

[UltraMagnetic]

Is there any proof that regular sensors can't detect him? Because no Sensor ever fights the form of Madara that had those shadows, especially not one anywhere near as good at it as Goku is. Not to mention that they're not intangible so Goku should be able to sense them just fine using the air pressure if they are somehow devoid of life energy, especially since they're likely slower than him as well.

Well most shinobi on the show displayed the ability to sense/detect chakra depending on the amount. Real sensory types could do it with more accuracy over greater distances like Karin. Madara was surprised that Naruto and Sasuke could see them. The fact that The Limbos don't exist on the same plane as the user but can operate within it is what makes them undetectable. However since Sasuke and Naruto also have the power of the Sage they are able to perceive them.

[UltraMagnetic]

Goku's got the speed and the firepower.

Also worth noting is that Goku can feel the sudden vibrations in the air and avoid attacks. Even if he can't sense the life-force.

Madara is highly durable against physical attacks (taijutsu) and can regen from devastating injuries in moments while still fighting. He also has the ability to absorb chakra/ki (assuming their both similar) with the Preta Path, repel it with the Deva Path, or just cancel it out with the Orbs of Truth.

Madara could use the Human path to take Goku's soul.

[The Drunkard Kid]

- Piccolo's "open palm attack" is the Explosive Demon Wave, which he used to island bust against Goku when younger in the Budokai

- Roshi's kamehameha was the "max power kamehameha," which he can't even do in a fighting situation because it takes minutes of REAL TIME to fire off, which is hundreds or more times the time it takes for anyone to charge up ki attacks later in the series. The only thing close to this goku does is the Chou kamehameha later in the series, which is a relatively long charge, but still an instant to fire off.

I've got both of those volumes right here, and I think you may be misremembering them a bit.

-Piccolo's only island busting attack in the 23rd Budokai was an omni-directional physical shockwave that required tons of charge time (and again, all forms of Piccolo have shown that they can concentrate massive amounts of power to do precise amounts of damage, especially since this attack only damaged things in a dome that bottomed out at about the level of the floor of the raised arena they were fighting in) and was released by sticking both his arms in the air. He did create a massive mushroom cloud earlier, but that was fired with both hands while bending his body double with his feet splayed apart. He subsequently used that same technique (with notable charge time) to match, and get overpowered by, Goku's Chou Kamehameha. When he did that relatively slow homing blast that was powerful enough to destroy his own arm when he got hit by it himself, he took notable charge time (while completely pissed about the previous overpowering) and fired it off with an open palm while bracing his wrist with his free arm, which was also the exact same position he used for his final attack on an apparently immobile Goku, though with no apparent charge time this time around (though he was basically running on fumes and aiming at someone who was almost dead already).

The only attack he did during his duel against Goku that was similar to his moon buster, where he just stuck his palm out with his free (and completely healthy) arm dangling at his side while shouting "Begone!" without any charge time whatsoever, was his first ki-blast to Goku, which he followed with a salvo of ki-blasts from both arms, and which failed to do anything but ruin Goku's shirt. Seriously, he even told Goku to quit pretending to be unconscious because he knew that that even someone as crazy powerful as him couldn't take out Goku that easily and Goku got up with a smile.

-Roshi didn't require anything even close to minutes of real time to fire off his max power Kamehameha. He charged it up and fired it in one page, faster than Yamcha (who Goku had introduced to Roshi by noting that he was incredibly fast by the standards of peak-humanish beginning of series Goku's reflexes) could finish a sentence (with Roshi starting the chant right before Yamcha could say the last word, which was the most important word he was trying to communicate to Roshi at the time to save Goku's life, so its unlikely that he would have just cut off for shock) or even get more than a few steps away from Kuririn and Bulma, who he was standing next to at the time.

[The Drunkard Kid]

Well most shinobi on the show displayed the ability to sense/detect chakra depending on the amount. Real sensory types could do it with more accuracy over greater distances like Karin. Madara was surprised that Naruto and Sasuke could see them. The fact that The Limbos don't exist on the same plane as the user but can operate within it is what makes them undetectable. However since Sasuke and Naruto also have the power of the Sage they are able to perceive them.

They really don't actually, unless you mean super-massive amounts of chakra where they're shocked that they can even sense it at all. And considering that the Limbo shadows are able to strike things on this plane, they don't seem to be intangible, so Goku should be able to feel their air-pressure just fine, even assuming that Goku can somehow not detect any life energy from them (which is different from chakra seeing as how chakra has elemental flavors and people getting chakra specifically post-dates people being alive in the Narutoverse timeline).

Ki is probably closer to senki anyway, since they're both the power of nature while chakra was a more processed power source from the original explanations, and a byproduct of Jyuubi or something from the current one. Especially considering Goku's later Genki Dama tech is basically taking Naruto's absorption of natural energy about fifty bajillion levels up.

[Hazard]

They really don't actually, unless you mean super-massive amounts of chakra where they're shocked that they can even sense it at all. And considering that the Limbo shadows are able to strike things on this plane, they don't seem to be intangible, so Goku should be able to feel their air-pressure just fine, even assuming that Goku can somehow not detect any life energy from them (which is different from chakra seeing as how chakra has elemental flavors and people getting chakra specifically post-dates people being alive in the Narutoverse timeline).

They are intangible. That was the point of Sasuke's sword going right through them. They are phase shift clones. They are not really in this dimension but they can strike this dimension just fine.

Only attack with the Sage's Chakra work on them.

[The Drunkard Kid]

They are intangible. That was the point of Sasuke's sword going right through them. They are phase shift clones. They are not really in this dimension but they can strike this dimension just fine.

Only attack with the Sage's Chakra work on them.

I'll take your word for it, since I still have no idea what the heck the deal with those things are. I thought I missed a chapter when they came out. Still, if they're intangible, they probably won't do anything to block a mass of Jyuubi+ ki barreling past them from someone who is likely faster than they or Madara are, assuming that ki doesn't work on them as well.

[Hazard]

Okay, Piccolo's moonbuster with feats.

The feat:
http://i.imgur.com/2VfB20U.png
http://i.imgur.com/vwz3vKB.jpg

Piccolo destroys the moon. He's visibly tired after it. Granted, he has just gone up against Raditz like half a day ago.


This is the first time we see the attack being used:
http://i.imgur.com/7C08Sez.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/uL8dvM6.jpg

King Piccolo uses it against Goku and shows the ability to use it in quick succession. One of them is enough to knock out and nearly kill the much weaker Goku.

Next, the appearance of the 'Wrist Held' variation. A stronger King Piccolo destroys a city with it:
http://i.imgur.com/EXgvBVS.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/xvCQnYt.jpg

Piccolo later uses the regular version against Goku... and shows the ability to spam the things:
http://i.imgur.com/5E32QFE.jpg

Both Goku and Piccolo were holding back at that point.

Piccolo uses the Wrist Held variant as his finishing move against Goku:
http://i.imgur.com/xhHK996.png

Funny thing, Piccolo would also use this variation against the much stronger Raditz to no effect:
http://i.imgur.com/km5n07g.jpg

Later on, Gohan also uses the wrist held variant to use his full power against Frieza:
http://i.imgur.com/SsRVlf8.png

So yeah, Piccolo used the weaker variant of the move in order to blow up the moon.

That said, this is a 5 years later Piccolo. Seriously, these guys can get insanely stronger in just three years at this point. I wouldn't use it as an indicator of his strength back then.

[Estrecca]

I'll also point that there is some evidence, both in Dragonball and Galactic Patrolman Jaco, that the moon of the Dragon World is a cratered, tiny piece of rock not all that much larger than King Kai's own mini-world.