Do you think that what Jean Grey did in X-Men Red #5 was ethical?

[Beaubier]

But she didn’t rewrite anyone’s personality. I don’t know how else to say this. She showed them something. That’s it.

This. She showed them that the mutants they are trying to kill are people just like them. Then the soldiers MADE THEIR OWN CHOICES.

Jesus. People are acting like Jean mind controlled them and brainwashed them. She didn’t. She presented them with something that could make them rethink their actions, and -MOST- of them did. It was a gamble that paid off.

[PunishedFire]

Ethics Vs. Doing the right thing.

What she did, forcing her will on someone elses mind (no asked to have their mind opened up to a new way of thinking) was unethical, but from a humanity standpoint, to avoid the murdering of innocents, it was most certainly the right thing to do. She's done this before in the past. Frenzy/Blockbuster/Joanna Cargil comes to mind during the Magneto Wars. I suspect that was actually when Frenzy started on her path to being a hero. Perhaps a soft suggestion was left behind after Jean basically shoved her hand up her mental backside and turned her into a puppet.

Underrated post right here.

Good stuff.

Jean was damn near torturing herself after Fatal Attractions when she and Xavier invaded Magneto's mind...issue atter issue, she thought it was stooping down to Magneto's level and thought Exodus had proper motivation in Bloodties when he attempted revenge against them all.

Another excellent point about how Jean used to deal with the ethics of stuff like this.

Oh and regarding the Emma "bliss button post"...

That is precisely why Emma shouldn't be on the X-men if she's going to act like that.

[remydat]

Ethics Vs. Doing the right thing.

What she did, forcing her will on someone elses mind (no asked to have their mind opened up to a new way of thinking) was unethical, but from a humanity standpoint, to avoid the murdering of innocents, it was most certainly the right thing to do. She's done this before in the past. Frenzy/Blockbuster/Joanna Cargil comes to mind during the Magneto Wars. I suspect that was actually when Frenzy started on her path to being a hero. Perhaps a soft suggestion was left behind after Jean basically shoved her hand up her mental backside and turned her into a puppet.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethics

I think by definition if she did the right thing then it was ethical as ethics is the study of right and wrong conduct.

If she had killed someone, would you say it was unethical if she did so to prevent genocide.

I ask as I think people are making mental invasion as a greater violation than actually killing someone. It would totally have been ethical for her to kill to defend against genocide and what she did was far less damaging than death.

[JmH Reborn]

Having the power to prevent injustices and not doing anything is unethical - Jean not using her gifts would have been unethical

[PunishedFire]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethics

I think by definition if she did the right thing then it was ethical as ethics is the study of right and wrong conduct.

If she had killed someone, would you say it was unethical if she did so to prevent genocide.

I ask as I think people are making mental invasion as a greater violation than actually killing someone. It would totally have been ethical for her to kill to defend against genocide and what she did was far less damaging than death.

Is raping someone better or worse than killing them?

Can't it simply be a different kind of not-good thing?

EDIT:

I'd love it if this story lead to one of the mutants saved by the X-men, having experienced the mind of the soldiers willing to kill them, loses it and becomes a violent mutant supremacist because of that shared experience while simultaneously hating/blaming Jean Grey for inflicting that onto them.

It would be poetic.

[Del torro]

God, I love those issues of Jean brainwashing Joanna and making her a hero to fight magneto. That's the problem with Taylor and Morrison, they want Jean the Saint the only gets angry once in a while. I prefer Claremonts playful girl next door with a really dark mean streak that will mess you up.

Claremont is canon. Everyone else can....

[Del torro]

Emma is more fun when dealing with crowds... ;-)

Waaah Emma is evil, she gave me an orgasm waaah

/I'm kidding, before I get mobbed

[Sacred Knight]

No, its not ethical. Not a fan of what they're doing with the returned Jean Grey, as I figured I probably wouldn't be after the excitement of just her coming back to life wore off. I mean, its not that I can't forgive nor understand why she did it. Its the fact that she seems completely and utterly without care or struggle in that she did do it. That's not been Jean Grey in the past. She's struggled with such things before, greatly. Now she's just "ends justify the means" without it weighing on her mind at all. Its disturbingly modern Cyclops-like.

[Del torro]

HAHAHA, something, something, Bobby Drake, something, something clever.


All jokes aside though... I really think Emma was more ethical in the above picture than Jean is.

Someone asked me why I think this is Madelyn Pryor, and I said "Its because its almost like watching a caricature of what someone evil would think Jeans personality would be."
Thing is so many writers over so many years have had a crack at writing Jean Grey that there isn't very much solid consistency.
I read all of Nate Greys X-men in the 90's and I kept being reminded how there are other Madelyn Pryors out there who aren't imperfect clones. I get that feeling "... I know a Maddy when I see one..."
even though I'm wrong cannonically I'm stuck with thinking that now, maybe its the way her facial expressions are begin drawn? She seems very wide eyed crazy, and has that demanding pout of a person thats
very... I don't know... spoiled inside... turned like soured milk. Almost like she came back from the grave different from how she's been. ymmv.

I'm also torn because there's been some really good arguments on both sides.
Maybe this is the way that telepaths do battle, and she did respond to "Lethal Force" with "Non-lethal force" she could have done a lot worse most likely.
On the other hand she could have just said "Hey! No more shooting" and it would have stopped without giving force giving them "The Feels".

So I think the idea of "Was this ethical" is almost a False Dichotomy. Its almost a "How ethical was this?"
with
1. Being the Lightest dissuasion a World Class level telepath can muster?
and
10. Being: Mind-wipe= Vegetable, Kill Your Partner, Permanent Selective Amnesia: Forget Everyone who loves you, and everyone in your unit, When you get home kill your family

On any use of force continuum its "use the least amount of force needed" but they'd already escalated to deadly force so... maybe they got off easy.

The only problem with this is: What kind of person is Jean Grey, now? Use the least force? Or... ensure a spanking?
and if it isn't "use the least force needed" and wants to be involved in politics she's not too different from the hellfire club.

I'm aware that in the modern era some people feel like "no wrong tactics, only wrong targets" but thats how you get a world dominated by sentinels... or worse Furies.

Hmm, so Emma was more ethical because she telepathically performed sexual acts on this people giving them an orgasm. So when Emma rapes you, it's considered ethical, but when Jean shows you how you're making victim feel and allows you to make the choice to stop or continue, we bring out the tiki torches huh?

[Dementia5]

Waaah Emma is evil, she gave me an orgasm waaah

/I'm kidding, before I get mobbed

Great. Now these people are gonna purposely picket wherever Emma is.

[WhiteQueenEmmaFrost]

Hmm, so Emma was more ethical because she telepathically performed sexual acts on this people giving them an orgasm. So when Emma rapes you, it's considered ethical, but when Jean shows you how you're making victim feel and allows you to make the choice to stop or continue, we bring out the tiki torches huh?

You use the term "rape" far too easily out of context. You know exactly what it is and the context you're using is simply for provocation.


What Jean did was ethical because no one was going to listen...it's the equivalent of shouting to be heard...she opened the door and the people decided what to do with the information they were given...which is why that one soldier kept wanting to fight...she didn't change anyone's mind.

It's more troubling that a thread like this was "necessary" instead of discussing what the actual villain of the story is doing to the minds of world leaders.

Great. Now these people are gonna purposely picket wherever Emma is.

Like when the All-Goddess Acolytes take over a thread? I don't think there's anything on that level of infestation.

[PunishedFire]

Waaah Emma is evil, she gave me an orgasm waaah

/I'm kidding, before I get mobbed

The funny part is that I have literally seen rapists use that same line of logic as justification for violation and have seen people totally defend what Emma did as innocent

[Hizashi]

The thread wasn’t necessary, I simply raised the problem that I personally had with the implications of the issue. I was questioned and tried to provide context for why it bothered me, and here we are.

[Knives]

The thread wasn’t necessary, I simply raised the problem that I personally had with the implications of the issue. I was questioned and tried to provide context for why it bothered me, and here we are.

It was not so bad compared to other topics most behaved better than expected.


When I saw the title thought a war between Jean fans or between Jean and Emma fans would start on the second page.

Plus some have raised good points and liked the poll result most approve Jean's position but a significant number disapprove is fair.

[PunishedFire]

The thread wasn’t necessary, I simply raised the problem that I personally had with the implications of the issue. I was questioned and tried to provide context for why it bothered me, and here we are.

Apparently, despite these stories "not being for children" (according to so many), discussing moral implications of these stories is verboten or something?

No idea. I can't follow the logic.