Do modern Marvel writers hate Thor?

[Cronus]

One of the things that I never understood is how Thor and Odin came to despise each other under Fraction? There were times that Odin was stern and heavy handed, sure. But disrespectful and even combative? Hmmmm...

[CaptainMar-Vell92 of the Kree]

One of the things that I never understood is how Thor and Odin came to despise each other under Fraction? There were times that Odin was stern and heavy handed, sure. But disrespectful and even combative? Hmmmm...

I think Odin should have stayed in the afterlife fighting Surtur.

[Anthony W]

Jason Aaron doesn't know how Fantasy and Cosmic characters work.

You're wrong. Look at how popular Valkyrie is now. People just can't stop talking about the character! She is burning up the sale charts proving that Jane Thor's popularity was in no way just a 90s style sales stunt like the Clone Saga.

No way is Jane the new Ben Reilly.

[CaptainMar-Vell92 of the Kree]

You're wrong. Look at how popular Valkyrie is now. People just can't stop talking about the character! She is burning up the sale charts proving that Jane Thor's popularity was in no way just a 90s style sales stunt like the Clone Saga.

No way is Jane the new Ben Reilly.

I was referring to his tendency of writing Aliens, deities and cosmic entities like regular humans from a thriller with a potty mouth.


Are you sure his Valkyrie is really popular?

[Panic]

I believe Anthony may have been deploying irony.

[Anthony W]

I was referring to his tendency of writing Aliens, deities and cosmic entities like regular humans from a thriller with a potty mouth.


Are you sure his Valkyrie is really popular?

One billion percent sure! It's so popular that Marvel has to limit how many it can sell because releasing too many wouldn't be fair to the other comics Marvel puts out. Once you read it you have no desire to read the other comics put out that month.

It's. Just. That. Good.

[Cronus]

I think Odin should have stayed in the afterlife fighting Surtur.

No arguments from me.

So, top 3 things you would change about Thor?

[brettc1]

While reading the latter parts of Jason Aaron's run on Thor and his Avengers run, i got struck by the impression that most Marvel writers, starting with Matt Fraction, got really bad at depicting Thor's characterisation and powers. It really hit me with a recent Avenger's issue with theCelestials when they call for help in the Bowels and they make Thor out to be this clueless barbarian who doesn't know what a bowel is. They then say stuff like Guts, Belly, etc before he comes crashing in asking if he was in the right place. To say nothing of his addiction to mead and putting all of his self-Worth in a chunk of uru. His recent position as all father under Cates might change things, but this is clearly the weakest version of an adult Thor I've seen for some time when he wasn't officially depowered by a villain or a macguffin.

Sure, there are moments like the final battle between old king Thor and Gorr, but his few moments of awesome are overshadowed by many dethroning moments of suck.

-Getting one-shotted by Immortal Hulk.

-Barely holding Ghost Rider (Robbie)'s car.

-Being owned by Ursa Major.

-Being owned by Namor and his swim posse.

-Being convinced of being inferior to She-Hulk's strenght.

-Needing to go berserk to defeat a few Frost Giants, something he never needed before.

-Being ignorant of Earth's politics to the point of failing to realize that Hydra Cap is evil.

-Not knowing how to date strong women like She-Hulk despite having being around badass asgardian action girls like Valkirye and Sif.

-Being shown as less heroic and competent than Jane Foster at every turn.

He is far removed from the Thor who used Mjolnir in a clever way to get the edge over the Juggernaut, who used Mjolnir to shoot powerful energy blasts reminiscent of the Kamehameha against the celestials and the skymother Majeston Zelia. The Thor who stopped a suicide bomber through dialogue, wisdom and compassion. The Thor who despite being turned into a frog mantained his regal behaviour, his heroic willpower and dramatic speech pattern.

That's when it hit me that they have lost touch of what Thor character is. The dude is a mythological God, not only his he the son of the God of Wisdom and king of Asgard, he received possibly some of the best education anyone in the galaxy could probably get. He's knows all the languages of the nine realms, trained in nearly every style of swordfighting and unharmed combat, has Superman-like strenght, was disguised as a skilled medic for years etc. He was educated to be a King. He is not dumb, he is actually far smarter than the average new yorker, honestly I would dare to say that he probably got a better education than even Tony Stark.

Thor has issues with modern day USA because it's a different culture with different standards. It would be like if Leonardo Da Vinci time travelled to modern day Italy and being both confused and intrigued by how much has changed since his time period. Just because he's out of his homeland and context, doesn't mean he's stupid.

This brings the cartoon Avengers Earth's Mightiest Heroes to my mind. In that show, Thor didn't quite get modern Earth's conventions and technology but he was anything but an idiot. He was wise, clever and spoke like a operatic knight in shining armor, and he came off like a pagan god learning about modern Earth and modern people.

it would be great if they stop writing him as a stupid alcoholic barbarian completely clueless about our world who gets stomped by any character Marvel wants to promote, and more just a man in a foreign land. But i think modern Marvel writers are either indifferent to Thor and his mythos or really hate the character (not on the level of Quasar, Nova and Black Knight though) and keep him around just because he's a Lee/Kirby creation.

Thor is basically Hercules with a hammer now.

I think a lot of it comes from Hemsworth being such a great comedic actor. The comic writers want to put that humour in but the only wY they can do it on paper is to make Thor an idiot.

[CaptainMar-Vell92 of the Kree]

Yeah. Synergy can be blamed for some of it. MCEU Thor is pretty goofy and slapsticky and some of that is leaking into the comics. I remember when it was was generally agreed that Thor was stronger than Hulk. Now Hulk floors him with one punch.

Well, it's interesting.

So, dating back to mythology we can say Thor is pretty uncaring by the complexities of life, for modern standards. Despite being the son of the god of wisdom and related to a trickster god, there has never once been a mug of mead and ale left sitting out that Thor could resist drinking to his displeasure. He's a noble warrior for viking standards, but he's a few vikings short of a raiding party.

So when it came time for Lee and Kirby to introduce Thor to the Marvel universe, this element stayed, either intentionally or by virtue of needing drama and "Tricked by a trickster god" is an easy way to get there. It's why one of Thor's most famous battles is him dive-tackling an illusion of Loki through an open door and into a pit of angry bees, while the real Loki stands off to the side cackling at the fact that his trickery worked again!

But eventually future Marvel writers came around, Thor's importance and powers were expanded (still less popular than Spiderman and the mutants though), and we started getting badass and ominous moments like "Ultron! we would have words with thee" and Thor wrecking Iron Man and astonish the people of Oklahoma in JMS run.

Then the MCU comes around, and we need to re-introduce Thor. If you're going to start a character arc, you need to start somewhere, and Thor started out as a general dumbass blood knight. Not a dope like we're used too, but a cocky, arrogant young warrior who doesn't think things through. We see this in Thor and Thor: Dark World.

But we don't see it in Avengers. In Avengers (and especially in AoU) we see a Thor who is funny, but also a little the butt of the joke. His comical ineptness is played up, and Thor goes from "Young and arrogant" to "Actually, he's relatively even-headed, just a thundering dumbass"

By phase three, we love Thor for his meme potential. Dumb jokes, Chris Hemsworth's delivery - he's still powerful, but instead of being a wise warrior king with a olde english accent he's more akin to a falstaffian character who isn't much different from the modern american fratboy.

So what does all this have to do with the comics universe?

Well, the MCU sinergy has completely remolded our image of Marvel Comics, and the Thor we're starting to see is undergoing character regression to more accurately match the MCU Thor. The problem is that the MCU Thor derives it's characterization from a version of Thor who believed garden hoses were snakes, and who hasn't been seen on the printed page since the late sixties.

I feel bad for Thor. Because he is such a fundamentally good character. His mythological background gives him an interesting pool of relevant texts to draw from, and the way he's been positioned in the marvel universe as a protector of humanity and magical hero (with a slight berserker rage tendency - enough to add some flavor to his style of rule, not enough to ruin it) makes for an interesting variety of threats he can face.

There was a comic story that I saw a while back that addressed this perfectly. It was a day in the life of Thor - and it saw him traveling the planet, protecting wild-life, drinking with the common people, experiencing the beauty of nature, and walking among the denizens of earth as Thor - not Thor, the idiot, self-important god of thunder - but as Thor, the noble warrior with a lust for life and an understanding that his role as leader is defined by his ability to help those who need, and not just by his ability to bash giant monsters on the head.

[CaptainMar-Vell92 of the Kree]

No arguments from me.

So, top 3 things you would change about Thor?

1) Making him more resourceful, wise and compassionate kinda like Superman or Captain America.

2) Use the God Blast or Anti-Force more often to defeat the big bads. Because Kamehamehas are cool.

3) Give him epic feats and willpower without the hammer.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

It's because Thor's taken as the team powerhouse, so it's easy to generate cheap heat by knocking him down.

I'd assume that yes, it's something like this. Thor is taken for granted as one of the strongest guys in the room, so if a writer wants to promote a certain character or make fans' heads explode, knocking him down a peg is an easy way yo do it.

[JackDaw]

I'd assume that yes, it's something like this. Thor is taken for granted as one of the strongest guys in the room, so if a writer wants to promote a certain character or make fans' heads explode, knocking him down a peg is an easy way yo do it.

That’s true I think.

My “bias” is that using team powerhouses to make newbies look good happens more than equivalent treatment being dished out to other top tier characters.

By that I mean none of us would be that surprised to see Thor taken out quickly by some new random strong guy..but I think most of us would be surprised to see Dr Strange quickly taken out by a new human magician,mr Fantastic “out scienced” by a newbie, etc, etc

[CaptainMar-Vell92 of the Kree]

That’s true I think.

My “bias” is that using team powerhouses to make newbies look good happens more than equivalent treatment being dished out to other top tier characters.

By that I mean none of us would be that surprised to see Thor taken out quickly by some new random strong guy..but I think most of us would be surprised to see Dr Strange quickly taken out by a new human magician,mr Fantastic “out scienced” by a newbie, etc, etc

I'm really starting to dislike the Worf Effect device.

[Cronus]

1) Making him more resourceful, wise and compassionate kinda like Superman or Captain America.

Exactly. Why is that something most writers these days fail to grasp about Thor's character? There is a reason, for example, Captain America, is seen as someone who could lift Thor's hammer, not vice versa. Thor should the standard in terms of high moral character, nobility, and all that other good stuff.

2) Use the God Blast or Anti-Force more often to defeat the big bads. Because Kamehamehas are cool.

Yes. Mjolnir provides a whole host of powers, esoteric included, that writers seem to have forgotten exists. Vortexes, tornadoes, hurricanes, lightning, water spouts and like you mentioned, anti force and god blast. Also, I would like a writer to expound on the dreaded warriors madness that increases Thor's strength 10x.

3) Give him epic feats and willpower without the hammer.

We agree on much and this is certainly one of them. As mentioned, warriors madness would be cool to explore.

How about a modern rematch with Immortal Hulk without the hammer?

[Ichijinijisanji]

That’s true I think.

My “bias” is that using team powerhouses to make newbies look good happens more than equivalent treatment being dished out to other top tier characters.

By that I mean none of us would be that surprised to see Thor taken out quickly by some new random strong guy..but I think most of us would be surprised to see Dr Strange quickly taken out by a new human magician,mr Fantastic “out scienced” by a newbie, etc, etc

Valeria and Lunella are considered smarter than reed

Also, things like science and magic are more abstract and poorly defined than strength, and usually end up being the backups when strength fails.

It's the old brain over brawn, or skill over brawn. Brawn must fail for other attributes to have success like tactics, science, skill, magic or any other hax. So it's rare for anyone to outscience anyone, because that trope doesn't happen.