How would you reboot Superman?

[Johnny Thunders!]

Actually my answer to this question is my answer to most Superman questions, more Terra Man please.

[manwhohaseverything]

All this. And it's not just Clark suffering from the Bat ceiling, it's the entire DCU. When WB/DC actively hold down their other IP so Batman's superiority and popularity isn't challenged, all it does is hurt the entire roster. It is immensely bad business.

Just look at where we are in the comics now; DC's Bat obsession has rendered the rest of the line persona non grata and nobody can sell a comic despite the general quality being higher than it's been in years (at least among the books I'm reading). I guess the company can only make other heroes bend over for Batman's enjoyment so much before fans decide those other heroes aren't worth following. You can't treat 99% of your line like a bunch of incompetent sidekicks, always in need of Batman's sage advice and help, before fans stop giving a damn and abandon the characters.

I always felt superman is a secondary character and batman is the protagonist.Marvel feels more like a interconnected parallel narrative.DC clearly is just story with a hero..

[Prime]

All this. And it's not just Clark suffering from the Bat ceiling, it's the entire DCU. When WB/DC actively hold down their other IP so Batman's superiority and popularity isn't challenged, all it does is hurt the entire roster. It is immensely bad business.

Just look at where we are in the comics now; DC's Bat obsession has rendered the rest of the line persona non grata and nobody can sell a comic despite the general quality being higher than it's been in years (at least among the books I'm reading). I guess the company can only make other heroes bend over for Batman's enjoyment so much before fans decide those other heroes aren't worth following. You can't treat 99% of your line like a bunch of incompetent sidekicks, always in need of Batman's sage advice and help, before fans stop giving a damn and abandon the characters.

I actually liked Batman before DC started writing him as an emotionally stunted, abusive little prick (hard to believe given how I write about him, I know) and started writing everyone else fawning over him. If WB makes a Superman movie where Clark put on the cape because he was inspired by Bruce, I'm out. I'll avoid the film and everything connected to it. I don't care if it's the best Superman film ever made, if Batman is Clark's inspiration that shows the company has learned nothing and they'll just follow things up with more Bat wanking.

Take note that the recent Discover article pretty much is about when Batman finally fails. Then what?

[Ascended]

Take note that the recent Discover article pretty much is about when Batman finally fails. Then what?

He doesn't even have to "fail." All it'll take is Bats losing some of his sales and his position in the Top 25. If the brand slips in the rankings I wouldn't necessarily call that "failure" since it could still be turning a reliable profit, but that relatively minor drop could well be more than DC can handle. If the one leg DC is standing on gets yanked out from under them they're gonna be in trouble.

And it is f*cking crazy to me that DC has put all their eggs in this one basket, then stomped on all their other eggs and set the other baskets on fire. Who thinks that's wise? How did people on that level of business think it was a good idea? Far as we can tell right now, Batman and a few related titles like Nightwing are the only things consistently making it into the Top 50. The Top. 50! Once upon a time, anything selling that poorly was considered cancellation fodder. And the sales landscape is much more varied and dynamic now, and we have less clue what sales actually look like, but we do see....doesn't look great.

And DC has no one to blame but themselves. They're the ones who drove fans away from all their other IP, and now if Batman does fail they have nothing they can easily elevate and push to make up the difference.

I don't think Batman is anywhere near failing, or even slipping in sales enough to be a problem. But if that does happen? DC is fucked. And it's gonna make me really sad, because some of my favorite fictional things live at DC. But a part of me is gonna laugh like a madman too. I'm gonna find it funny as hell if it turns out *I* had a better head for this business than the people running the show (not that I really expect that, my ego isn't that big, but....).

[Kirk Brent]

He doesn't even have to "fail." All it'll take is Bats losing some of his sales and his position in the Top 25. If the brand slips in the rankings I wouldn't necessarily call that "failure" since it could still be turning a reliable profit, but that relatively minor drop could well be more than DC can handle. If the one leg DC is standing on gets yanked out from under them they're gonna be in trouble.

And it is f*cking crazy to me that DC has put all their eggs in this one basket, then stomped on all their other eggs and set the other baskets on fire. Who thinks that's wise? How did people on that level of business think it was a good idea? Far as we can tell right now, Batman and a few related titles like Nightwing are the only things consistently making it into the Top 50. The Top. 50! Once upon a time, anything selling that poorly was considered cancellation fodder. And the sales landscape is much more varied and dynamic now, and we have less clue what sales actually look like, but we do see....doesn't look great.

And DC has no one to blame but themselves. They're the ones who drove fans away from all their other IP, and now if Batman does fail they have nothing they can easily elevate and push to make up the difference.

I don't think Batman is anywhere near failing, or even slipping in sales enough to be a problem. But if that does happen? DC is fucked. And it's gonna make me really sad, because some of my favorite fictional things live at DC. But a part of me is gonna laugh like a madman too. I'm gonna find it funny as hell if it turns out *I* had a better head for this business than the people running the show (not that I really expect that, my ego isn't that big, but....).

Give yourself more credit. Those of us who have been reading comics and about comics for decades, who actually understand and have an affinity for the characters and their stories, do have a better head for running the show. WB's problem has always been that it sees DC as an IP farm. On one hand, that's understandable as they are a business. On the other hand, DC (and Marvel, Star Wars, etc.) are much more than IP farms. They're universes with characters and stories that mean a great deal to generations of people. If WB had a unified vision for DC on film, both companies would be in a far better place. The MCU succeeded not because of a cookie-cutter approach to filmmaking as some claim, but rather, because Marvel Studios had a brain trust of comic book writers/fans that respected the identities and stories of each character. If Marvel had "Tony Starkified" Thor like WB has "Batmanified" all of its other characters, the MCU wouldn't have lasted beyond two or three films.

WB has always had contempt for DC, its creators, and the animation division. Kevin Smith's account of his time on Superman Lives revealed that the studio execs have always held comic book creators in contempt. The same is true of animation. WB's focus on "filmmaker vision" is what ultimately doomed DC on film. These people didn't even have the rights to Superman on film and only became involved when the Salkinds had a pitch. Putting filmmaker vision first has worked when the filmmakers have understood and loved the characters (Donner, Burton to an extent) but have largely failed the characters otherwise. Nolan's vision is barely Batman, Snyder's isn't Batman at all, and Superman hasn't been seen on the big screen since Superman Returns, itself another example of how filmmaker vision first fails characters.

I hope Discovery really means that it wants to revitalize non-Batman characters and that they get someone to head things up who knows and respects the DCU. You don't have to like Superman, for example, but you should make a faithful Superman film to respect the character's legacy and its fans and protect your IP's integrity. Instead, it's been "Superman needs to be reimagined" or "Superman doesn't work" instead of "let's hire people who get Superman" to make a film.

Rambling over. I'd support seeing you in charge instead of what I'm afraid we're going to see: more execs who don't understand non-Batman characters Batmanifying them even more.

[Prime]

He doesn't even have to "fail." All it'll take is Bats losing some of his sales and his position in the Top 25. If the brand slips in the rankings I wouldn't necessarily call that "failure" since it could still be turning a reliable profit, but that relatively minor drop could well be more than DC can handle. If the one leg DC is standing on gets yanked out from under them they're gonna be in trouble.

And it is f*cking crazy to me that DC has put all their eggs in this one basket, then stomped on all their other eggs and set the other baskets on fire. Who thinks that's wise? How did people on that level of business think it was a good idea? Far as we can tell right now, Batman and a few related titles like Nightwing are the only things consistently making it into the Top 50. The Top. 50! Once upon a time, anything selling that poorly was considered cancellation fodder. And the sales landscape is much more varied and dynamic now, and we have less clue what sales actually look like, but we do see....doesn't look great.

And DC has no one to blame but themselves. They're the ones who drove fans away from all their other IP, and now if Batman does fail they have nothing they can easily elevate and push to make up the difference.

I don't think Batman is anywhere near failing, or even slipping in sales enough to be a problem. But if that does happen? DC is fucked. And it's gonna make me really sad, because some of my favorite fictional things live at DC. But a part of me is gonna laugh like a madman too. I'm gonna find it funny as hell if it turns out *I* had a better head for this business than the people running the show (not that I really expect that, my ego isn't that big, but....).

Thanks Ascended. You know how to articulate what I can't. DC has no one to blame but themselves. Jumping the shark with BVS is what caused them to fail.

[Last Son of Krypton]

I don't think Batman is anywhere near failing, or even slipping in sales enough to be a problem. But if that does happen? DC is fucked. And it's gonna make me really sad, because some of my favorite fictional things live at DC. But a part of me is gonna laugh like a madman too. I'm gonna find it funny as hell if it turns out *I* had a better head for this business than the people running the show (not that I really expect that, my ego isn't that big, but....).

It's the mainline of comics that it's more affected. Outside the BM books, only SM, WW and Flash can still sustain an ongoing (but for how long?). But elsewhere DC is find success with a variety of characters in YA novels and kids books. Perhaps it's only the beginning of the end of the serialized in-continuity comics we were used to.

[Ascended]

Rambling over. I'd support seeing you in charge instead of what I'm afraid we're going to see: more execs who don't understand non-Batman characters Batmanifying them even more.

Aw, thanks! I do actually have a business degree and built a lot of my courses around creative fields. Always been fascinated by the fusion of business and creativity, and how one has to bend around the other. I think I am actually qualified to godfather intellectual property; I know business realities and limitations have to be considered first and foremost, but also recognize that IP largely succeed when the core elements that made it popular in the first place are maintained and applied to larger audiences/different demographics. But I'm also a small business guy, the sprawling hierarchy of these giant corporations is largely alien to me. If I'm honest, I don't think I'd be any worse than some of the folks who've been in charge...but that's a low bar to cross and I don't know if I'd actually be any *good* at the gig! But the support is appreciated.

It's the mainline of comics that it's more affected. Outside the BM books, only SM, WW and Flash can still sustain an ongoing (but for how long?). But elsewhere DC is find success with a variety of characters in YA novels and kids books. Perhaps it's only the beginning of the end of the serialized in-continuity comics we were used to.

Well I'd argue the slow collapse of the direct market began long ago, but yes you're probably right. Outside of the direct market we have what, OGN's like Raven and I'm Not Starfire that sell well and trades like Superman Smashes the Klan winning prestigious awards, we have Doom Patrol and Young Justice streaming to rave reviews, an entire universe on the CW, etc., etc.

But I think the direct market is a great window into WB/DC's wider priorities. They chase synergy (despite it seemingly not impacting sales to any large degree) so what they publish in the LCS tells us a lot about what they want to push beyond the comic shop. You'll notice there hasn't been a lack of Suicide Squad books, even though it doesn't ever seem to sell very well. And AT&T reportedly saw a lot of adaptation potential in the 5G characters like Jon Kent, and while 5G was officially dropped you'll notice it really wasn't, and those characters are still getting a big push with Dark Crisis, even though those new characters don't seem to be performing any better than average, with some cancelled already and the rest only selling as well as their parent franchise usually does.

Which is all just long-winded way of saying that the direct market is still the core of DC, and is the first medium to manifest signs of WB's larger plans.

Thanks Ascended. You know how to articulate what I can't. DC has no one to blame but themselves. Jumping the shark with BVS is what caused them to fail.

Always happy to put words in someone's mouth.

[Minerboh]

Personally, I would take him away from the main DC Universe, in a separate imprint. Away from DC's obsession to make Batman the next Beerus.

[Last Son of Krypton]

Well I'd argue the slow collapse of the direct market began long ago, but yes you're probably right. Outside of the direct market we have what, OGN's like Raven and I'm Not Starfire that sell well and trades like Superman Smashes the Klan winning prestigious awards, we have Doom Patrol and Young Justice streaming to rave reviews, an entire universe on the CW, etc., etc.

But I think the direct market is a great window into WB/DC's wider priorities. They chase synergy (despite it seemingly not impacting sales to any large degree) so what they publish in the LCS tells us a lot about what they want to push beyond the comic shop. You'll notice there hasn't been a lack of Suicide Squad books, even though it doesn't ever seem to sell very well. And AT&T reportedly saw a lot of adaptation potential in the 5G characters like Jon Kent, and while 5G was officially dropped you'll notice it really wasn't, and those characters are still getting a big push with Dark Crisis, even though those new characters don't seem to be performing any better than average, with some cancelled already and the rest only selling as well as their parent franchise usually does.

Which is all just long-winded way of saying that the direct market is still the core of DC, and is the first medium to manifest signs of WB's larger plans.

If AT&T, a company that was about to destroy WB/DC before selling it, saw potential in 5G... it's not a good sign.

Outside of SuperJon replacing Superman, 5G as it was intended is abandoned. Yara never become WW and took over Diana. Jace was moved to New York and has no relevance to the Bat-books, etc. They are all leftovers of an aborted initiative developed by a now fired editor with the blessing of a clueless company like AT&T that sold WB asap. They were too far into developing this 5G that couldn't abort it entirely, but it seems there isn't that grand design behind what DC is doing like people believe, imo.

[Stanlos]

He doesn't even have to "fail." All it'll take is Bats losing some of his sales and his position in the Top 25. If the brand slips in the rankings I wouldn't necessarily call that "failure" since it could still be turning a reliable profit, but that relatively minor drop could well be more than DC can handle. If the one leg DC is standing on gets yanked out from under them they're gonna be in trouble.

And it is f*cking crazy to me that DC has put all their eggs in this one basket, then stomped on all their other eggs and set the other baskets on fire. Who thinks that's wise? How did people on that level of business think it was a good idea? Far as we can tell right now, Batman and a few related titles like Nightwing are the only things consistently making it into the Top 50. The Top. 50! Once upon a time, anything selling that poorly was considered cancellation fodder. And the sales landscape is much more varied and dynamic now, and we have less clue what sales actually look like, but we do see....doesn't look great.

And DC has no one to blame but themselves. They're the ones who drove fans away from all their other IP, and now if Batman does fail they have nothing they can easily elevate and push to make up the difference.

I don't think Batman is anywhere near failing, or even slipping in sales enough to be a problem. But if that does happen? DC is fucked. And it's gonna make me really sad, because some of my favorite fictional things live at DC. But a part of me is gonna laugh like a madman too. I'm gonna find it funny as hell if it turns out *I* had a better head for this business than the people running the show (not that I really expect that, my ego isn't that big, but....).

I think a huge component of that problem was in various execs at DC (I will not say his name) not getting or outright hating some DC properties and leading from that position. If you can call it leading.

I think every year they don't have a Karen Berger, Dwayne McDuffy, Mark Waid, Kurt Busiek, Ron Marz or a John Ostrander in that role the worse it will get. DC has an enormous roster of characters, all viable, and the leadership needs to be centered on celebrating those designs not trying to make them dumber or into other not even remotely as successful brands.

[Prime]

I think a huge component of that problem was in various execs at DC (I will not say his name) not getting or outright hating some DC properties and leading from that position. If you can call it leading.

I think every year they don't have a Karen Berger, Dwayne McDuffy, Mark Waid, Kurt Busiek, Ron Marz or a John Ostrander in that role the worse it will get. DC has an enormous roster of characters, all viable, and the leadership needs to be centered on celebrating those designs not trying to make them dumber or into other not even remotely as successful brands.

This is why we need a DC studios

[Jim Kelly]

On the matter of how to situate Superman in the world of Matt Reeves' THE BATMAN, one thing I notice is that even the most grounded Batman movies always have some creative leap that makes them science fiction. The most grounded Batman movies are actually the Adam West movie from 1966 and the two serials from the 1940s, because they used all practical effects and stunts and couldn't go far beyond what the real world allowed.

In THE BATMAN, there's some tech that's suggestive of BLACK MIRROR. In the Charlie Brooker anthology series, what's real is toyed with. A lot happens in simulated realities. If there's tech that can create virtual worlds--places where people can escape from the horrors of modern living--then, in such worlds, fantasies about life on other planets and super-human abilities can be realized.

So, in the world of THE BATMAN, the Man of Steel could exist as a fantasy. However, there's a grounded angle to that, as the cyber world is a place where we all exist and do commerce. Nations and terrorists commit acts of violence through that medium. Bruce Wayne might have to enter that world to pursue criminals from his real world--so in that way Batman could cross paths with Superman.

[Ascended]

If AT&T, a company that was about to destroy WB/DC before selling it, saw potential in 5G... it's not a good sign.

Meh. The problem with 5G was the execution, Didio trying to force the next generation down our throats with few alternatives. Larger media doesn't have that problem. They can do Superdad on the CW, young Clark on that upcoming "Adventures with Superman" cartoon, a Jon story with the upcoming Super Sons animated film, etc. Something for damn near everyone.

And I maintain that the basic idea of 5G; opening up the DCU's timeline so stories could be told across a character's lifetime, that was viable. Much like we have right now (Old Man Kent in Action, young Clark in World's Finest, etc). Didio lacked the soft touch needed to make it work in this market but the basic premise is fine.

And AT&T saw potential in 5G's roster for adaptations. I never heard anything about them believing it would sell great in the direct market. I doubt they care whether comics sell or not (as long as they don't operate at too steep a loss), and the demographics for larger media have very different expectations than we do. What doesn't work for us can work just fine elsewhere. Hell, Aquaman made a billion at the box office but can't carry a comic. Arrow ran for years and spawned a whole universe of shows, and Ollie can't carry a solo either. The 5G/Future State roster might not be impressing the direct market but any of them might be successful elsewhere.

I think a huge component of that problem was in various execs at DC (I will not say his name) not getting or outright hating some DC properties and leading from that position. If you can call it leading.

Pretty much. You don't have to like a IP on a personal level to recognize why other people like it, and hire folks who'll lean into those elements. WB/DC seem to forget this.

This is why we need a DC studios

Agreed, but who would you trust to hire the person to oversee it all? That's the core problem; WB don't get why these characters work so they don't hire the right people. And to be fair, finding a "Kevin Fiege" isn't exactly easy, you need a person who can recognize the core appeal in the source material whether it appeals to them personally or not, who knows how to adapt it for different, larger audiences without losing that core appeal, and who has the business acumen to pull it off. That's gotta be a rare find, a skilled film maker with a good eye for talent and a deep understanding of the available IP, but not enough ego to blind them.

I wouldn't even fully trust Kevin Smith to do it, and he's a Hollywood nerd who knows his comics as well as any of us, on top of being a successful film maker and writer.

[DochaDocha]

I lost some faith with Smith after Masters of the Universe. Maybe it's not really his fault. Bad things happen when you make sequels decades after the fact and don't involve the story's original creators.

I always react adversely whenever someone says get Bruce Timm to be the new leader, but if I ignore the handful of things I really hated, I think he and the JLU guys could do a good job. But I'll still pass because the stuff I really hated almost got me to quit watching the DCAU, and I can't handle the nerdraging that would happen at the Hollywood level.