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Thread: Joker war

  1. #226
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    Quote Originally Posted by PurpleGlovez View Post
    One last thought. Remember when the Joker was funny? Damn, those were the days.
    I genuinely think Tynion doesn't know what "a joke" is - what with the way he had the Joker talk about them, and now he treats Punchline's name like its something esoteric and meaningful.

  2. #227

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    I read it and overall I liked the issue for a few reasons!
    1. Getting the Batfam back together
    2. Bab's as Oracle leading and coordinating across the entire city!
    3. Cass and Steph appearing as Batgirls, and hoping it continues to the future!
    4. I liked Batman and Harley as sort of "work friends" way more than I thought, the bomb thing was kind of silly, but it did force him to decide who he wanted to save more even if he thought the Joker could get out of it! I liked that he talks to Harley like he respects her, and she even made him laugh a few times in the hospital, he was letting his guard down a bit with her. I think he knew that the bomb thing was her trying to save him from having to deal with the Joker himself, and Harley feeling it was the only way to save everyone, including the entire Batfam from the Joker's continued attacks on them! I could see Harley working for or with Batman occasionally in the future very easily after this!

    I am really tired of the Joker, just seeing him on panel is exhausting to me! I guess they need him to be a challenge for the entire Bat Family, but seriously he's just a smart thug serial killer, and every time he is on panel I want Jason, Helena, Kate, or Harley to shoot him in the head and get it over with!

    One thing I wouldn't mind seeing come out of this is the more violent peripheral members of the Bat Family forming a team, put Kate, Jason, Helena, and Harley on a team and that would be kind of a fun, but very violent group!

    Jason's Red Hood/Robin outfit is kind of stupid! I prefer when he dresses like a grown up!

    As with other criticisms here on the thread, it would have been nice if we got some dialogue from other Bat Family members other than just Barbara and Dick! Hopefully, the change in the line will give the others some time in the spotlight going forward!

    Punchline turning her upcoming trial into a chaos **** show should be kind of fun, she even has an advantage taking it to trial like this, none of the Bat Family can risk their identities to testify against her so anything involving the vigilantes would get tossed out by the judge because Punchline has the right to face her accusers and if they won't appear in court under their proper identities then their testimonies are all inadmissible! It should be interesting what they do with her trial!

    I am actually interested to see what they do with Clownhunter, and I like how angry he got with Batman, especially knowing that the Joker is still at large and that made him absolutely furious!
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  3. #228
    Astonishing Member Nite-Wing's Avatar
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    Harley couldn't get a headshot on Joker because of plot but even in Morrison's run some random cop dressed as Batman can shoot him in the head.
    Oh but she shot out his eye I wonder if that will stick or just be ignored

    The stupidity of the bomb plot is that both Harley and Joker have too much plot armor to ever be killed by such a plot device so you don't even need to show how either of them survived it. genius
    I mean by the next page its just said they are both fine but apparently Harley was injured and Joker wasn't???
    That's why you need to show these things though because by the own standards of your storytelling Joker should not have been able to escape
    Last edited by Nite-Wing; 10-07-2020 at 09:00 AM.

  4. #229
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    Reply With Quote the post.
    Ugh, so obvious now that you mention it. Thanks.

  5. #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nite-Wing View Post
    Harley couldn't get a headshot on Joker because of plot but even in Morrison's run some random cop dressed as Batman can shoot him in the head.
    Oh but she shot out his eye I wonder if that will stick or just be ignored

    The stupidity of the bomb plot is that both Harley and Joker have too much plot armor to ever be killed by such a plot device so you don't even need to show how either of them survived it. genius
    I mean by the next page its just said they are both fine but apparently Harley was injured and Joker wasn't???
    That's why you need to show these things though because by the own standards of your storytelling Joker should not have been able to escape
    He'll have an eyepatch if he appears in the next story arc like when Penguin was shot by Red Hood, but only for one story arc. After that, it's Dyonesium level of healing. ^^

  6. #231
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    Quote Originally Posted by RachelGrey View Post
    I read it and overall I liked the issue for a few reasons!
    1. Getting the Batfam back together
    2. Bab's as Oracle leading and coordinating across the entire city!
    3. Cass and Steph appearing as Batgirls, and hoping it continues to the future!
    4. I liked Batman and Harley as sort of "work friends" way more than I thought, the bomb thing was kind of silly, but it did force him to decide who he wanted to save more even if he thought the Joker could get out of it! I liked that he talks to Harley like he respects her, and she even made him laugh a few times in the hospital, he was letting his guard down a bit with her. I think he knew that the bomb thing was her trying to save him from having to deal with the Joker himself, and Harley feeling it was the only way to save everyone, including the entire Batfam from the Joker's continued attacks on them! I could see Harley working for or with Batman occasionally in the future very easily after this!

    I am really tired of the Joker, just seeing him on panel is exhausting to me! I guess they need him to be a challenge for the entire Bat Family, but seriously he's just a smart thug serial killer, and every time he is on panel I want Jason, Helena, Kate, or Harley to shoot him in the head and get it over with!

    One thing I wouldn't mind seeing come out of this is the more violent peripheral members of the Bat Family forming a team, put Kate, Jason, Helena, and Harley on a team and that would be kind of a fun, but very violent group!

    Jason's Red Hood/Robin outfit is kind of stupid! I prefer when he dresses like a grown up!

    As with other criticisms here on the thread, it would have been nice if we got some dialogue from other Bat Family members other than just Barbara and Dick! Hopefully, the change in the line will give the others some time in the spotlight going forward!

    Punchline turning her upcoming trial into a chaos **** show should be kind of fun, she even has an advantage taking it to trial like this, none of the Bat Family can risk their identities to testify against her so anything involving the vigilantes would get tossed out by the judge because Punchline has the right to face her accusers and if they won't appear in court under their proper identities then their testimonies are all inadmissible! It should be interesting what they do with her trial!

    I am actually interested to see what they do with Clownhunter, and I like how angry he got with Batman, especially knowing that the Joker is still at large and that made him absolutely furious!
    Right on! My view on this issue is almost exactly the same as yours.

    Quote Originally Posted by PurpleGlovez View Post
    Man, I hope I don't sound ignorant since I have no other way to articulate this thought, but... this straight-up sucked. Like what the hell was the point of any of this **** and how was it different from any other "ZOMG THE CITY'S BURNING TO THE GROUND!" Batman story? It's almost comical how quickly everything is returned to normal. The Joker says he's scarred the city in ways that will take years to heal. Um, how? What exactly is different? I just don't get it. Like I've read most of Tynion's work in the Bat-universe and some of it isn't bad but I genuinely just don't understand what anything in this run is going for. Good thing I have thousands of old comics and DVDs with actual good takes on Batman and the Joker to keep me company.

    One last thought. Remember when the Joker was funny? Damn, those were the days.

    Oh, and another last thought. Is there actually a human being on the face of the Earth who even remotely cares about Clownhunter?

    I admit I laughed when he said "Otherwise all those weird little orphans you keep collecting (...)"

    About Clowhunter, I care about him, his story in Joker War Zone gained my attention, I want to see what they will do with him.

  7. #232
    Extraordinary Member Jman27's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    He'll have an eyepatch if he appears in the next story arc like when Penguin was shot by Red Hood, but only for one story arc. After that, it's Dyonesium level of healing. ^^
    oh yeah I forgot that Jason did shot Penguin. These writers gotta stop making a mockery of death
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  8. #233
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    Ugh. I'm actually sorry I read this issue. Goddamned Joker (with red nail polish now? Aw PLEAZE!) stabs and stabs and stabs the Bat-God who just isn't up to stopping him. The art was so chaotic the fight was impossible to follow. And can they put that effing clown in a box already?!? He's not even taken out of action for a single issue! How Batman fails to find him when he literally kills everyone he meets now is beyond baffling. And to make everything even worse, now Punchline (who should have been killed and forgotten about) gets her own mag?!? I'm really starting to hate Tynion. The sooner he leaves the Batworld the better. Just like King and Snyder... Sigh. What I wouldn't give for a really good Bat-writer...

  9. #234
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    Quote Originally Posted by RachelGrey View Post
    4. I liked Batman and Harley as sort of "work friends" way more than I thought, the bomb thing was kind of silly, but it did force him to decide who he wanted to save more even if he thought the Joker could get out of it! I liked that he talks to Harley like he respects her, and she even made him laugh a few times in the hospital, he was letting his guard down a bit with her. I think he knew that the bomb thing was her trying to save him from having to deal with the Joker himself, and Harley feeling it was the only way to save everyone, including the entire Batfam from the Joker's continued attacks on them! I could see Harley working for or with Batman occasionally in the future very easily after this!
    I dunno, it just didn't feel genuine to me with their history and what Harley's done (and acted like) to where I could believe their dynamic in this, and to where Batman would espouse his new, fresh, and optimistic worldview to her instead of to characters who he would more sensibly talk to (like, say, the Batfamily).

    For an event that became about bringing the Batfamily back together, I feel like we could've used more of them and less of Harley.

  10. #235
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    Catwoman has been so sidelined. I can't believe they didn't even have one scene together- does he even know she's alive?

  11. #236
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    There's a kernel of an interesting idea in the notion that Punchline goes from being this sort of angry, slightly irredeemable incel stand-in Joker fanboy character who really buys into the 'agent of chaos'/'this world is a joke' nihilism "Joker Was Right" rebel savior savant overtones that are wallpapered onto the Joker even though he's just an ******* clown villain who doesn't care about any of it ... going from being that take on a Joker Henchman ... to being a young (ostensibly white and college educated to boot!) woman who is now weaponizing victimhood and low-key shi**ing all over people who are actual victims.

    There's ALMOST a cultural critique going on in there. But it's kind of worse than that ... because she's actually Playing the Harley Quinn Card. Harley was a victim, gaslighted, manipulated, coerced, very much made to do some bad things that probably came right up to the edge of her morality. Because Harley exists and is doing better, we know that Joker has a history of doing this. Being a toxic, coercive, manipulative, gaslighting *******. We know it's a thing Joker does, he manipulates these poor, helpless young women into villainy! Nevermind their agency! Don't even have to ask the question! JOKER DID IT. Get that woman a blanket and a great lawyer and a pumpkin spice latte, she's going to get through this!

    Punchline seems entirely aware of this of course because she's a supervillain. Harley Quinn is a woman who's a victim who is owed less blame because of how victimized she was. Punchline's making it personal by stealing her schtick to get away with murder, basically. She's a sociopath.

    It gets more juicy and complex actually because even though Joker seemed fine having a solid loyal henchwoman that impresses him and appeals to his narcissistic vanity (he always did like having some eye candy on hand so everyone knew how O.G. and baller he was) ... it's a cold relationship. Clinical and showy. For a time, when he actually did like her, or even still kind of, but not quite, with a dash of attempted murder, Joker seems like he really had genuine affection for Harley. And she was correct in recognizing it. So while he was manipulating her he was using his genuine like of her to do it. So she detected that it wasn't purely an act because she's not an idiot. Plus it's easier to manipulate if you can use and channel real feelings. But it gets messy and confusing. Which is Joker and Harley's whole deal in a nutshell.

    Bad breakup. That ex you never shut the eff up about. There was something real there but you know, a hench-wench with some level of a buried ethics and an idea that she's meant to be far more empowered than this crap relationship she's blind to ... a psycho killer clown.

    Anyway, not meaning to read too deep into it. I just think it's interesting that Punchline is using The Harley Defense. Cynically. Villainously. Deliciously deviously. And maybe even a little "wink wink" from Tynion to the audience that he's not just aware of her "Not Just Another Harley Quinn" status but that he's constantly thinking about different angles to play with a character like this.

    She's still derivative of course. And self-awareness or denial of being derivative are not personality traits readers find charismatic nor are they necessarily "instant fighting words" for reasons to put her and Harley up against each other. Her reason to exist is to compare/contrast with Harley Quinn and "using the Harley Defense" like a cynical ******* contributes to that. She still needs sort of "her own, in-story" reason to exist as a character.
    Last edited by K. Jones; 10-08-2020 at 02:07 AM.
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  12. #237
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrswing View Post
    Ugh. I'm actually sorry I read this issue. Goddamned Joker (with red nail polish now? Aw PLEAZE!) stabs and stabs and stabs the Bat-God who just isn't up to stopping him. The art was so chaotic the fight was impossible to follow. And can they put that effing clown in a box already?!? He's not even taken out of action for a single issue! How Batman fails to find him when he literally kills everyone he meets now is beyond baffling. And to make everything even worse, now Punchline (who should have been killed and forgotten about) gets her own mag?!? I'm really starting to hate Tynion. The sooner he leaves the Batworld the better. Just like King and Snyder... Sigh. What I wouldn't give for a really good Bat-writer...
    I'm pretty much with you here. Batman getting stabbed should be a WOW moment--maybe even a WOW DIDN"T SEE THAT COMING moment--but this was just plain boring and the repetition was ridiculous. I'm all for suspension of belief in comics but come one, Bruce should be out of action for at least a year after all he's gone through in this storyline. I was sick of the Joker long before this war--I'm well beyond that now and am saddened that it's Tynion that got me here. I really enjoyed so much of his JLD.

  13. #238
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    Quote Originally Posted by K. Jones View Post
    There's a kernel of an interesting idea in the notion that Punchline goes from being this sort of angry, slightly irredeemable incel stand-in Joker fanboy character who really buys into the 'agent of chaos'/'this world is a joke' nihilism "Joker Was Right" rebel savior savant overtones that are wallpapered onto the Joker even though he's just an ******* clown villain who doesn't care about any of it ... going from being that take on a Joker Henchman ... to being a young (ostensibly white and college educated to boot!) woman who is now weaponizing victimhood and low-key shi**ing all over people who are actual victims.

    There's ALMOST a cultural critique going on in there. But it's kind of worse than that ... because she's actually Playing the Harley Quinn Card. Harley was a victim, gaslighted, manipulated, coerced, very much made to do some bad things that probably came right up to the edge of her morality. Because Harley exists and is doing better, we know that Joker has a history of doing this. Being a toxic, coercive, manipulative, gaslighting *******. We know it's a thing Joker does, he manipulates these poor, helpless young women into villainy! Nevermind their agency! Don't even have to ask the question! JOKER DID IT. Get that woman a blanket and a great lawyer and a pumpkin spice latte, she's going to get through this!

    Punchline seems entirely aware of this of course because she's a supervillain. Harley Quinn is a woman who's a victim who is owed less blame because of how victimized she was. Punchline's making it personal by stealing her schtick to get away with murder, basically. She's a sociopath.

    It gets more juicy and complex actually because even though Joker seemed fine having a solid loyal henchwoman that impresses him and appeals to his narcissistic vanity (he always did like having some eye candy on hand so everyone knew how O.G. and baller he was) ... it's a cold relationship. Clinical and showy. For a time, when he actually did like her, or even still kind of, but not quite, with a dash of attempted murder, Joker seems like he really had genuine affection for Harley. And she was correct in recognizing it. So while he was manipulating her he was using his genuine like of her to do it. So she detected that it wasn't purely an act because she's not an idiot. Plus it's easier to manipulate if you can use and channel real feelings. But it gets messy and confusing. Which is Joker and Harley's whole deal in a nutshell.

    Bad breakup. That ex you never shut the eff up about. There was something real there but you know, a hench-wench with some level of a buried ethics and an idea that she's meant to be far more empowered than this crap relationship she's blind to ... a psycho killer clown.

    Anyway, not meaning to read too deep into it. I just think it's interesting that Punchline is using The Harley Defense. Cynically. Villainously. Deliciously deviously. And maybe even a little "wink wink" from Tynion to the audience that he's not just aware of her "Not Just Another Harley Quinn" status but that he's constantly thinking about different angles to play with a character like this.

    She's still derivative of course. And self-awareness or denial of being derivative are not personality traits readers find charismatic nor are they necessarily "instant fighting words" for reasons to put her and Harley up against each other. Her reason to exist is to compare/contrast with Harley Quinn and "using the Harley Defense" like a cynical ******* contributes to that. She still needs sort of "her own, in-story" reason to exist as a character.
    It's interesting you bring up the Harley defense when Harley, for most of her life, has never claimed to be a victim even with all of Joker's abuse. Like she didn't blame him for turning her into a criminal or for the crimes she's committed even though with the abuse people tend to view her more as a victim rather than someone who willingly committed herself to what she has become.

    Meanwhile Punchline is basically lying and saying it's all Joker's fault, she was a victim, and she'll try to make amends for her crimes. So pretty anti-Harley compared to all the dozen times Harley's been caught and sworn loyalty to Joker without much in the way of guilt.

    And yeah, is Punchline white or Asian? She doesn't have an Asian name but her features and the way she dresses is distinctly Asian.

  14. #239
    Mighty Member SixSpeedSamurai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrswing View Post
    The art was so chaotic the fight was impossible to follow.
    I have not enjoyed Jimenez art at all on this. I find him highly overrated. I would have prefered March on it, but he's been regulated to short stories.
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  15. #240
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    Quote Originally Posted by K. Jones View Post
    Punchline seems entirely aware of this of course because she's a supervillain. Harley Quinn is a woman who's a victim who is owed less blame because of how victimized she was. Punchline's making it personal by stealing her schtick to get away with murder, basically. She's a sociopath.
    Yeah, I agree with all of this. I've mentioned before that DC seems to shy away from genuinely evil women. They are all victims or somehow redeemable antiheroes. It feels old-fashioned and paternalistic.

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