So, Can the Titans Finally be Saved Now?

[Badou]

Because jl doesn't do anything for these characters. It's a different kind of team than titans. These characters require a xmen like team to actually work better. Titans was their team. They founded it so they get to keep the brand. Titans need dick grayson,Not any Robin.Damian ain't dick grayson.

It's been decades since the adult Titans did anything worthwhile though. I can't even remember the last time there was just a good Dick Grayson focused Titans story. So it isn't like the Titans brand is doing the adult Titans any favors in the comics.

The Titans as a brand will never be able to move on from youth being a core part of their identity. I can't see it ever happening. That is the identity of the Titans as a franchise. Some people want to say "family" is, but it isn't. It is about young heroes. That is the most consistent theme of the teams since its creation. It is about young heroes growing up, and as long as the adult Titans are on a Titans team they will never break away from being "young heroes". Which will always put them in an awkward position of being too old to really be considered "young heroes" anymore, but too young to be on the level of the JL generation. So they end up being stuck in this awkward position of being neither and no one knows what to do with them. They have grown out of the core Titans theme, but they keep getting shoved back into it because that is what the Titans franchise is about.

The X-Men team's core identity was about mutants and mutant survival. So even if they also had young teen characters that grew up right along side the Titans characters the core identity of the franchise, mutant issues and survival, remained the same even when they moved far away from it being about young heroes. The Titans don't really have any theme like that to lean on now that the original Titans are all adult and don't fit with the core theme of the franchise. They end up just being another hero team that feels like a JL knockoff with no real direction.

The big question would be which team.

It seems like DC wants to keep the main JL as a Big 6 centric team. So having the Fab5 there would be somehow redundant.

The books of secondary JL teams (which exception of Justice League Dark) were never really successful, most didn't even make to the two year mark before getting cancelled.

Most other teams just don't have the brand recognition, don't really fit the characters (Suicide Squad, Doom Patrol ...) and/or have an iconic line up. You might add one or two Titans to such a team but never the entire line up, and a lot of fans want these characters together.

I mean Wally and Roy have both been part of the main JL team. It is about having a creator want to use them in the title mainly. I mean Snyder's JL run has had a ton of focus on Hawkgirl, who isn't really an established JL fixture run after run.

I don't except any of the fab five to replace the main JL characters, but you are kind of stuck with two choices in the end. Continue with what the Titans have been for decades, constantly trying to reclaim their peak from 30+ years ago without being able to shake the identity of being "young heroes", or move on and try to join different adult hero teams. Sure, most of the adult teams, like the JL or JLA books and their spin offs or anything else, will not last long like most team books now, but I'd rather see them try to integrate into those books than to continue to be stuck where they are. Give me more things like Cyborg and Starfire on a cosmic JL team, Dick leading some JL or DCU spy team, Raven in JLD, Wally teaming up with the JSA for a while, Beast Boy back with the Doom Patrol, and so on to see how that works out over another uninspired Titans revival series.

[Aahz]

I mean Wally and Roy have both been part of the main JL team. It is about having a creator want to use them in the title mainly. I mean Snyder's JL run has had a ton of focus on Hawkgirl, who isn't really an established JL fixture run after run.

Wally was iirc only on the main team when Barry was dead and Roy during a time when the Big Six were pretty much pushed in the Background, which I don't see happening at the moment. And even when they wanted an Arrow Character in the Justice League I guess they would probaly pick Olli (maybe together with Dinah) since he has no solo at the moment.

I think a big reason Hawkgirl is on the team is the DCAU Justice League (thats also probaly the reason why John Steward is on the team).

[Lee Stone]

DC does need an X-Men level team again.

[deadman322]

Wally was iirc only on the main team when Barry was dead and Roy during a time when the Big Six were pretty much pushed in the Background, which I don't see happening at the moment. And even when they wanted an Arrow Character in the Justice League I guess they would probaly pick Olli (maybe together with Dinah) since he has no solo at the moment.

I think a big reason Hawkgirl is on the team is the DCAU Justice League (thats also probaly the reason why John Steward is on the team).

i wouldn't be suprised if snyder wanted wally on the team as well but wasn't allowed to use him cause king had dibs.

[Aahz]

i wouldn't be suprised if snyder wanted wally on the team as well but wasn't allowed to use him cause king had dibs.

Honestly when it comes to the Justice League I don't really think it makes much of a difference if Wally or Barry is on the team.

[deadman322]

Honestly when it comes to the Justice League I don't really think it makes much of a difference if Wally or Barry is on the team.

except for their different personalities and relationships with the other members.

[Aahz]

except for their different personalities and relationships with the other members.

Te personalities are not that differnt imo, and the relationships are anyway poorly defined post flashpoint.
And JL has usually anyway not a big focus on the interaction between the characters, since it is so event driven.

[Restingvoice]

DC's clearly not interested in Titans, but I don't know who else is not interested, besides Dan Didio, so I can't say.
From what I've seen DC is not interested in family/friendship type of story unless they have a character they want to promote at that time, like Damian or Jon. Once they lost interest, those titles, those Tomasi titles, are just gone.

DC's interested in the epic event, meaning mainly the Justice League, Batman, Superman, or whoever they can sell if they want to sell an event, and they're not gonna use Titans because they're not as popular or branded as Justice League. Meaning they see no use of Titans.

It's like... Titans is a YA movie being handled by a studio for disaster movies. Like if Michael Bay or Stephen Sommers trying to do Hunger Games or Divergence for a lack of better example... even if they have epic scenes in it, the focus, the main attraction for the fans is on character relationship and development... while the people handling it just want to see their toys go boom and make money from it... which is why they don't go to Titans. They go for Justice League because they have the brand name.

[Ascended]

They aren’t going to fix anything when the stage itself is in shambles. Sort out the team stuff first, get the team itself on solid footing, and then get to the individual characters.

But the characters *are* the stage. And all of those boards that make up the stage are cracked and broken and squeaky. The purpose of the team and the missions they go on are all just dressing; the real story is the characters. And the characters are broken and under-utilized. What good is a fantastic team concept when the people who make up the team are, at best, trapped in a shape they should've outgrown and at worst are actively minimized and abused?

I think Ascended's point was to fix the Titans as individuals then work on them being a team.

Yes, that's my point.

If you do a reunion title again, and it's a bad idea anyway but if you do one, before you start thinking about the team dynamic and role, you figure out the individuals. Otherwise the team foundation is going to be based on half-thought-out ideas, old/bad characterizations that don't fit, etc. Does that sound like fun to anyone?

I'm not saying you have to put each member in a book somewhere, get them into a viable narrative spot, and then two years later put them all back in a Titans book. All the character work could be part of the planning stages for a Titans title. All of this could be the first stages of designing a reunion book, but if you don't know what direction Dick and Raven and all the rest are pointed in, how can you spin a sustainable team around them? Hell, the first arc/s of the book *could* be them getting their feet under them. This doesn't have to be a separate effort from the team book, but it needs to be considered before you can really make them a team again. You can't say "these guys are a team" when most of the membership have no direction or have been pulled apart by DC so much they no longer have a shape of their own. That's not a team, its a hospital wing full of characters DC has broken.

But I still think another reunion is a foolish goal. It has not worked in decades. The only way it's benefited any of the characters is just giving them a place to show up, so the book is basically just a homeless center for 80's heroes. F*ck that. Even Beast Boy deserves better than that (and I really dislike Garfield). And that's all the book will be until someone comes along and gets to actually put some thought into things and figure out why they're still together, instead of just saying "Well, this brand is still just barely popular enough that we *have* to do the book, so let's just recycle poor re-tellings of stories from the 80's!"

[Godlike13]

If the characters were the stage then there is no point to a Titans title. It’s not a team then but a revolving shared solo. As individuals most of the Titans don’t even draw much interest. A strong enough team and world can actually alleviate a lot of individual character problems. The whole is greater than the sum of its parts. Sort out the team itself and the world that surrounds, and things will naturally get better for the individuals. If we have to wait for someone to fix Donna’s origin or Dick to get of Batman’s shadow then they start building things with Titans again, then Titans as a brand is just going to be in a perpetual state of development limbo.

[Ascended]

Except the team is not more than the sum of its parts. It's less. Seriously, the threats the Titans end up dealing with are things any of these heroes can tackle by themselves at this point. The whole concept of the (adult) Titans as a group needs to be torn down and rebuilt from the ground up, because these reunions do. Not. Ever. Work.

And again, I'm not saying put you have to put everyone in different books and spend time developing them *before* you put them in a team. But you need to know *why* they're a team, and you can't figure that out until you know who they are as individuals and what they need individually. What benefit do they gain from staying together (other than a book to appear in)? Figuring out what the team provides these characters and why they can't get that anywhere else will be what helps you figure out the team itself. Otherwise you're saying "here's the premise, and now we'll bend these characters to fit that shape whether it makes sense or not." That won't create a good book, and we know that because this is what every reunion title has done. So instead of repeating the same mistakes and expecting a different outcome, forget the idea that the Titans are more together than they are apart (history shows this isn't the case now) and figure out why any of them want to stick around and why/where they gain from it.

If this book is just going to be a homeless center, there's no damn point in it existing.

[Godlike13]

But that isn’t what the every reunion title has done. The reunion titles gets so lost in its characters the team itself goes completely undeveloped. That’s what has turned the Titans into a homeless center. The team concept, the world that surrounds it, the threats they tackle all that stuff become after thoughts because so and so needs individual work, but isn’t strong enough to actually support an individual platform. This why for characters like Nightwing, who has an individual platform, the Titans has become a terrible environment. Which is so counterproductive. This is part of why we aren’t seeing them fight new interesting threats, and why the concept hasn’t evolved. Creators get so lost in the individual needs, the greater gets taken for granted and forgotten.

Titans is greater then the sum of its parts, that is why for most of its members it’s Titans or limbo. As a group though it does need to be torn down and rebuilt from the ground up, but that never happens because instead it becomes a rehab book for homeless characters. Get the house in order first, and the tenants will in turn naturally benefit. And if the teams members are so broke and limiting that they can’t bend, then maybe cut them lose and find new more flexible characters that can bend.

[Ascended]

But that isn’t what the every reunion title has done. The reunion titles gets so lost in its characters the team itself goes completely undeveloped. That’s what has turned the Titans into a homeless center. The team concept, the world that surrounds it, the threats they tackle all that stuff become after thoughts because so and so needs individual work, but isn’t strong enough to actually support an individual platform. This why for characters like Nightwing, who has an individual platform, the Titans has become a terrible environment. Which is so counterproductive. This is part of why we aren’t seeing them fight new interesting threats, and why the concept hasn’t evolved. Creators get so lost in the individual needs, the greater gets taken for granted and forgotten.

I disagree, myself (obviously). I think the individuals have become lost in the "We're Titans! We're friends, and it's so f*cking magical we vomit rainbows together while holding hands and singing friendship songs!" You know what, maybe if Raven was written a little more interesting, and Vic was allowed to get past his angst, and anyone had even a vague idea of who and what Donna is, there'd be something more interesting going on.

And its true that some reunions have done things differently. The latest one made them sidekicks to the League and I don't think anyone liked that. Devin Grayson tried to make the Titans a training ground, but had more teachers than students. Johns' Titans wasn't even about the NTT, it was about Tim and his generation.

I mean, the Titans are going to fail no matter what, until and unless DC decides to treat it like something other than a dumpster fire and a place to quarantine characters they can't get rid of but don't want. But every single reunion, regardless of the excuse for it, has treated the book and characters like a recycled NTT. And it has never worked or been sustainable. The last time it was even halfway sustainable was Devin Grayson, and that survived as long as it did largely because the notion of a NTT reunion was still a new one. And that was over twenty years ago now I think.

Reunions don't work. And that's not me talking, that's sales history. The only reasons for a reunion title is nostalgia and to give DC a place to dump these characters where they can be ineffectual and ignored by the rest of the DCU (until people need to die for an Event, anyway). Neither of these things is a valid reason for a reunion.

Titans is greater then the sum of its parts, that is why for most of its members it’s Titans or limbo. As a group though it does need to be torn down and rebuilt from the ground up, but that never happens because instead it becomes a rehab book for homeless characters. Get the house in order first, and the tenants will in turn naturally benefit. And if the teams members are so broke and limiting that they can’t bend, then maybe cut them lose and find new more flexible characters that can bend.

Nah, the Titans are in limbo or stuck in a Titans book because DC misunderstood what made Wolfman's book work, and tried to keep the Titans stuck in a single shape and status quo without recognizing that the growth is what made the book work so well. And over time those characters went from being among DC's most popular to characters constantly handled poorly, and fans gave up and moved on. Just like the NTT should move on.

Reunions don't work partially because DC keeps trying to send these guys back to college when they should be beyond that point. That's the real rub, I think. All of DC exists in an eternal moment in time. Except for these guys. They got to grow up, that journey is what made them popular and made the book work. Trapping them in amber, as if they're still learning lessons Wolfman got past thirty-odd years ago, is missing what made the Titans matter in the first place, and the only way to fix that is to let the characters move on. That *could* happen in a reunion title, hypothetically. But it's far more likely to happen and be done well if DC stops living in the past. Why isn't Raven in Justice League Dark, for example, or some other magic based title/team? People here say she's supposed to be one of the most powerful mages in the DCU, yet she's still a Titan (if she gets used at all) and more often than not a TEEN Titan? How does this not sound wrong to everyone else?

[DrNewGod]

Titans could work, but it's going to have to have a theme beyond The Sidekicks or Ex-Sidekicks & Friends Club. For example, if some of the classic members regrouped out of frustration at their seniors' obsession with big menaces and disinterest in crimes on the street. That's not to say they couldn't stumble into something major from time to time, but position them against the kind of threats the original Outsiders used to deal with.

That said, Ascended's point is valid. It's not enough to give them plots and a theme, something's got to be done with the characters as well.

End of the day, the Titans are one of the best reasons I can think of for the return to a multiverse. You probably can't sustain an alternate world line of books these days, but it would make for some pretty good mini-series that are handy for collections.

[ducklord]

It IS tricky, finding a place for the adult Titans, both functionally and thematically.

The Justice League - Earth's Greatest Defenders. Organizational capabilities to bring everyone else together when bad stuff goes down.
Outsiders - Batman's Dark Ops group.
Teen Titans - Teenage heroes hanging out, growing up, and angsting up the place with their teen drama.
Young Justice - Even younger super-heroes, having fun in a kid-friendly way.
JSA - Old heroes showing younger whippersnappers how its done while legacying up a storm.
Green Lantern Corps - Earth's great, but there's a 100 billion galaxies to protect.
Legion - Hi, we're the future, and we also need protecting.
Hero Hotline - Neighborhood heroing.
Doom Patrol - Y'all aren't ready for the weirdness we protect you from.
Justice League Dark (worst. name. ever.) - We need an organized response to evil magic users.
New Guardians - While y'all are smacking around Starro, we're going to be over here protecting the future of humanity. Please just ignore us, m'kay?
Global Guardians - Yeah, we're mostly stereotypes, but isn't it nice that SOMEONE is paying attention to the rest of the planet?
Suicide Squad - Dark Ops that Batman wouldn't approve of, with a high body count.
Metal Man - Robot on Robot action
Inferior 5 - You want parodies? We got parodies!
Challengers of the Unknown - Fantastic Four adventures, minus the super-powers!
The Terrifics - A Fantastic Four homage that got out of hand?
Rip Hunter and the Time Masters - Challengers of the Unknown, plus time travel!
Sea Devils - Challengers of the Unknown, plus scuba gear!
Cave Carson - Challengers of the Unknown, underground!

So, what thematic/functional niche do the adult Titans fit, these days? For all intents, they're pretty much fully functioning extended members of the Justice League. If they're actually hanging out together, what's their hook? Are they a proactive Justice League team sent to discover and snuff out threats before they metastasize? Do they tour the country reaching out to young people with powers encouraging them to "say no" to super villainy? Are they a melancholy commentary about adults holding on to their teenage glory years?What makes them something other than another Justice League team?

I honestly don't know how they fit.