Controversial Batfamily Opinions

[Aahz]

That is not true at all.Before the new 52 Batman was in Robin's solo but not the other way around.

IIRC Batman hardly guest stared in the Robin solo, if they teamed up it was usually in the Big Crossover stories, and occasionally in Batmans books (at least in the 90s).

[Zaresh]

The last thing Jason did under Winick's pen pre count down was afaik provide intel for Dick in Outsiders about Black Lighting being framed for murder and being about to get murdered in prison.

I didm't remember it was for BL, but I do remember this. Well, I didn't know it was so later, but that's because I read it out of order. But I think that you can argue that it was because Jason needed the Outsiders to help getting someone innocent free, not because he wanted to help the Outsiders. He went to Dick armed and ready, after all. Can't say that he wouldn't: Dick would have atracked him straight if not.

I can see that @dietrich, @Godlike13 and I are not going to agree at all. It's clear that you guys see the problem very differently than me, see the characters differently, and give importance to different things. So, like I said yesterday, before the discussion heats further, I'm out.

[Aahz]

I know (I didm't remember it was for BL, but I do remember this). Well, I didn't know it was so later, but that's because I read it out of order. But you can argue that it was because Jason needed the Outsiders to help getting someone innocent free, not because he wanted to help the Outsiders. He went to Dick armed and ready, after all. Can't say that he wouldn't: Dick would have atracked him straight if not.

Maybe but he was still helping the good guy in the end and didn't profit from it.
So at this point he was neither crazy nor evil.

And the characterizations in BFTC were in general off, it had for example Damian taking the Batmobile for a joy ride.

And the whole social media angle in Morrsions B&R story felt also off for Jason, that more something Anarky would do.

[Zaresh]

Maybe but he was still helping the good guy in the end and didn't profit from it.
So at this point he was neither crazy nor evil.

And the characterizations in BFTC were in general off, it had for example Damian taking the Batmobile for a joy ride.

And the whole social media angle in Morrsions B&R story felt also off for Jason, that more something Anarky would do.

Oh, you have a point.

And I agree: BftC was showing some conflicting characterizations. Tim too was off, and know that I know him better, I feel it clearer. Dick, to me, was off too (but with all that happened before that point, I can see why). And Jason was psychotic and delusional kind of... too much. And very loud. Jason being very, very loud. Uhu, yeah, heh, so much in character. But whatever: it wasn't as bad as Morrison's afterwards, who I see as a completely new character entirely, for strong reasons that have to do with his behaviour. For me, behaviour is a moot point: you can change his past, his looks, even how he talks. But if you change his behaviour, if you change how a character acts and thinks so much, it's not that character again, not in this everchanging medium of corporate comics that is rebooting and remaking history and designs every few years. Not for me.

Heh, I really don't want to follow this discussion. It angries me a bit.

[dietrich]

I'm not disputing that Jason was a victim or that he needed help.

I believe that Dick as a hero and the head of the family should do his best to safe guard his family and protect the everyone. Help those who need it and that's what he did for Jason and where Jason was concerned.

Dick prioritised the most vulnerable. Damian was more vulnerable. more traumatised and a heck of a lot more broken than Jason. He was alone. He had no one the last family he knew had disowned him because he chose to do good.

He was a minor [10yrs or less] alone at a critical point risking his life for others. I don't need to be a hero or even an adult to know who should take priority or what the right thing is for Dick to do. he should safe guard the minor who was trying to fix things. Dick did the right thing.

As for characters in Battle for the cowl being OCC or not it is canon and that is all that matters. I believe Damian taking a girl for a Joyride or strapping bombs to himself are OCC but they are canon so I have to accept it.

I can't pick and choose.

[dietrich]

IIRC Batman hardly guest stared in the Robin solo, if they teamed up it was usually in the Big Crossover stories, and occasionally in Batmans books (at least in the 90s).

My point is that Robin wasn't a constant in the Batman book like it was back when Dick and Jason were Robins.

[Sergard]

I agree with Zaresh. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but when opinions diverge that drastically, a discussion becomes pointless.

[dietrich]

Shocker controversial opinions threads used for opinions.

Anyway getting back to the discussion that was going on. I know it's wishful thinking hoping that Blud would prevent writers from dragging Dick into the Batman or making him take the cowl every time the need arises but I can't help it.

BludHaven I feel is essential to making Dick feel removed from the Batverse.

Nightwing is an Independent hero and not a Batman in waiting as I've said before.

[Zaresh]

Shocker controversial opinions threads used for opinions

And we lay out ours, and even discussed them.
And it was going nowhere but the mad corner (for me, at least). So why continue with the discussion?

Edit: yeah, open new discussions (or previous, in this case) is better.
How do you guys feel about making Dick travel a road trip? After this Ric stuff is over, I mean.

[Sergard]

Duke as a character needs his own logo, sunlight-themed hero with a bat on his face is mixed messaging at best and shamelessly bad branding at worst

It's more bat branding than bad branding
But an own logo is always nice. Some kind of sun logo would be the obvious choice for Duke. But not something that's too close to Gnomon's sun symbol.

[dietrich]

And we lay out ours, and even discussed them.
And it was going nowhere but the mad corner (for me, at least). So why continue with the discussion?

You don't. I don't which is why I'm not.

[Zaresh]

You don't. I don't which is why I'm not.

I saw your post before you edited to follow the discussion ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. It sounded like you were open to discuss more then.

Edit: just in case, I'm not trying to stir discussion. I'm explaining why I posted that. It's clearer now that you don't, either.

[Valentonis]

I think discussions like these ultimately come down to reader perspective vs character perspective. As readers we can look at BftC and BaR and see that Jason is acting in a way he wouldn't under another writer's pen, but the characters in the story don't have that type of foresight. They can only respond with what the writers give them to work with, and unfortunately with the way Jason was written in that era of batbooks, Dick kinda had his hands tied when it came to helping him.

Not trying to add fire to a discussion I can see is getting a little heated, just trying to give my viewpoint.

[Restingvoice]

That is not true at all.

DC likes the name and promoting them as a duo but they don't actually want the two always working together.
Tim was created to be an independent Robin and since the 90's Robin hasn't been a regular in the Bat books.

Before the new 52 Batman was in Robin's solo but not the other way around.

Independent Robin or other supporting cast work if they live someplace else, like Tim having his own home, parents, and school, or each of Robins if they stay in Titans Tower, but if they're supposed to live in Wayne Manor then they need to be in the story. At the very least they need to be mentioned, but some of these stories don't mention them at all

If it's been going on before New 52, then that just means the problem is bigger and older than I thought

[Zaresh]

I think discussions like these ultimately come down to reader perspective vs character perspective. As readers we can look at BftC and BaR and see that Jason is acting in a way he wouldn't under another writer's pen, but the characters in the story don't have that type of foresight. They can only respond with what the writers give them to work with, and unfortunately with the way Jason was written in that era of batbooks, Dick kinda had his hands tied when it came to helping him.

Not trying to add fire to a discussion I can see is getting a little heated, just trying to give my viewpoint.

This is a pretty good addition, actually. It's insightful.