How well has The Night Gwen Stacy Died aged as a story?

[mathew101281]

I think people are kind of over the Gwen, MJ, love triangle. Gwen has been dead for almost 50 years, Peter was married to MJ 21 years, and as much as Marvel wants Blackcat and a bunch of other random women to be "rivals," for Peter's affection, none of them are anywhere close to MJ in popularity so it isn't much of a rivalry. Time to get a new cliched plot line to beat like a drum. It's almost like Peter needs to grow up and leave the typical "young man" problems behind (hint, hint)

[NC_Yankee]

I think people are kind of over the Gwen, MJ, love triangle. Gwen has been dead for almost 50 years, Peter was married to MJ 21 years, and as much as Marvel wants Blackcat and a bunch of other random women to be "rivals," for Peter's affection, none of them are anywhere close to MJ in popularity so it isn't much of a rivalry. Time to get a new cliched plot line to beat like a drum. It's almost like Peter needs to grow up and leave the typical "young man" problems behind (hint, hint)

You are correct. Especially now, since we do not have to go to the history books to see a good MJ. Into The Spider-Verse, Renew Your Vows, Spider-Man Man Life Story, Amazing Mary Jane and Spencer’s ASM are all showing good versions of MJ, that the public likes. Throw in the fact there is a successful teenage Spider-Man ( Miles Morales), so there is no longer the need ( or perceived need) to have Peter as a kid or man-child. As for Felicia ( I do not despise her like I did Cindy), but I am all for her being away from Amazing, and having her own life without Peter. I really hope and pray that Kindred is the mechanism to get rid of OMD/BND, and to bring the marriage back ( especially if Annie is the next part of it).

[Ozymandias]

in the opinion of most Spider-Man fans ( myself certainly included), she just does not measure up to MJ

That sounds like a poll that's never been done, has it?

[NC_Yankee]

That sounds like a poll that's never been done, has it?

That poll is done all the time ( based on sales), the success of Into The Spider-Verse, and I will add the success of the newspaper strip.

[Ozymandias]

That poll is done all the time ( based on sales), the success of Into The Spider-Verse, and I will add the success of the newspaper strip.

Not a very good indicator of how well a character measures up to another. Not even a popularity poll would tell you that much, and there's been plenty of those. We're talking degrees here, some may prefer even other characters and leave Gwen at the bottom, while others may just prefer MJ even if Gwen would be second best. In both cases (or any in between), past polls and sales only answer the question: which one do you prefer? Not by how much.

In essence, there's no way to know if "she just does not measure up to MJ" (despite Marvel trying), or "she doesn't measure up to MJ" (because Marvel didn't try hard enough).

[NC_Yankee]

[QUOTE=Ozymandias;4963256]Not a very good indicator of how well a character measures up to another. Not even a popularity poll would tell you that much, and there's been plenty of those. We're talking degrees here, some may prefer even other characters and leave Gwen at the bottom, while others may just prefer MJ even if Gwen would be second best. In both cases (or any in between), past polls and sales only answer the question: which one do you prefer? Not by how much.

In essence, there's no way to know if "she just does not measure up to MJ" (despite Marvel trying), or "she doesn't measure up to MJ" (because Marvel didn't try hard enough).[/QUOT
We know Marvel has tried to get rid of MJ several times (Romita sr, and Slott are just the most notorious examples of this), we also know they have tried to do everything to bring back Gwen (Clone Sagas and Ghost-Spider to name two). We also know the newspaper strip lasted for a decade with the marriage intact ( despite OMD/BND), and if people would not have read it, it would have been eliminated. Do we conclusively know how much people prefer MJ to Gwen or even Felicia? No we do not. But we know that Marvel either tries to come up with a different woman for Pete ( starting with Betty, ending with MJ ( MCU) and having many others in between such as Gwen, Mockingbird and Felicia), and even hints at possibilities ( Natasha, Liz, Michelle and even Jean De Wolff), but despite all those attempts, MJ remains Number One Parker Woman and I bet that if you take a vote, MJ gets over 50% of the vote, and the rest fall in behind that ( my guess is Felicia would be second followed by Gwen and the rest).

[Ozymandias]

We know Marvel has tried to get rid of MJ several times (Romita sr, and Slott are just the most notorious examples of this), we also know they have tried to do everything to bring back Gwen (Clone Sagas and Ghost-Spider to name two). We also know the newspaper strip lasted for a decade with the marriage intact ( despite OMD/BND), and if people would not have read it, it would have been eliminated. Do we conclusively know how much people prefer MJ to Gwen or even Felicia? No we do not. But we know that Marvel either tries to come up with a different woman for Pete ( starting with Betty, ending with MJ ( MCU) and having many others in between such as Gwen, Mockingbird and Felicia), and even hints at possibilities ( Natasha, Liz, Michelle and even Jean De Wolff), but despite all those attempts, MJ remains Number One Parker Woman and I bet that if you take a vote, MJ gets over 50% of the vote, and the rest fall in behind that ( my guess is Felicia would be second followed by Gwen and the rest).

I really don't know about Romita Sr. All I know is he created her, why would he want to get rid of her?

Marvel wasn't really trying to bring back Gwen with the original Clone Saga, it's quite clear Conway only wanted to shut that door forever and he did. The epilogue and that "farewell" somehow took care of that. I didn't bother to read most of the comics Marvel published in the 90's, second Clone Saga included, so I have no idea about it. In any case, they were trying to sell copies, and if they needed to do holographic covers to get there, they sure did.

The newspaper strip, being part of another publication, offers no much guidance as to how much it was actually being appreciated. A better indicator would be reprint sales, how do they compare to other Lee written Spider-Man comics?

It's true Marvel tries different female characters for Peter/Spidey, but maybe that doesn't reflect on their opinion about MJ (it doesn't follow they think she's some kind of dictator) but on them having too much history together, which doesn't bode well for their man-child plans. The marriage certainly had to go, and their even being together will always be a dangerous proposition, as long as they intend on maintaining the status quo.

From past polls, I think MJ wins more by like 75%. Which is why Marvel hasn't really get rid of her, instead of "trying". Now, if they also knew by how much they prefer her, they could change their minds and actually go for it. To do that, they need a suitable replacement tough.

[NC_Yankee]

[QUOTE=Ozymandias;4963538]I really don't know about Romita Sr. All I know is he created her, why would he want to get rid of her?

Marvel wasn't really trying to bring back Gwen with the original Clone Saga, it's quite clear Conway only wanted to shut that door forever and he did. The epilogue and that "farewell" somehow took care of that. I didn't bother to read most of the comics Marvel published in the 90's, second Clone Saga included, so I have no idea about it. In any case, they were trying to sell copies, and if they needed to do holographic covers to get there, they sure did.

The newspaper strip, being part of another publication, offers no much guidance as to how much it was actually being appreciated. A better indicator would be reprint sales, how do they compare to other Lee written Spider-Man comics?

It's true Marvel tries different female characters for Peter/Spidey, but maybe that doesn't reflect on their opinion about MJ (it doesn't follow they think she's some kind of dictator) but on them having too much history together, which doesn't bode well for their man-child plans. The marriage certainly had to go, and their even being together will always be a dangerous proposition, as long as they intend on maintaining the status quo.

From past polls, I think MJ wins more by like 75%. Which is why Marvel hasn't really get rid of her, instead of "trying". Now, if they also knew by how much they prefer her, they could change their minds and actually go for it. To do that, they need a suitable replacement tough.[/QUOTE
I agree with you that there certainly has not been a suitable replacement for MJ ( and I do not think they ever will be). But look at Dan Slott, he had no need for her which is why she went to Iron Man. As far as polling is concerned ( to be fair you have to take them with a grain of salt. Why? If they were accurate, Hillary Clinton ( for better or worse) would be President right now). I certainly do not have to be sold on MJ ( I am a huge supporter of hers and always have been), I just was addressing the point of her compared to Felicia, Gwen and all the rest. As for the Status Quo and no marriage are concerned, they are no longer necessary ( I always disagreed with OMD/BND ), and that point of view was backed up after Into The Spider-Verse with the success of Miles and how well MJ was shown in that movie).

[Revolutionary_Jack]

I really don't know about Romita Sr. All I know is he created her, why would he want to get rid of her?

Just to be clear, Steve Ditko and Stan Lee created Gwen Stacy, not Romita Sr.

And Romita Sr. as per Comic-Creators on Spider-Man and other interviews that Lee did, had some issues when he took over. His intention was to continue and maintain Ditko's approach as much as possible, while Lee was the one who wanted Romita Sr. to transform the style of the comic.

Lee often accused Romita Sr. of undercutting Gwen in favor of MJ and apparently, Romita Sr. wasn't too keen on altering the version of Gwen that Ditko created (i.e. haughty socialite and bully) in favor of a silver age girlfriend.

So Romita Sr. having been there at the start when Lee, in the words of the great Regina George, "tried to make fetch happen" was never really a believer in it. Romita Sr. said multiple times they kept getting letters from readers asking why they're wasting their time with Gwen when MJ was around.

[Ozymandias]

Just to be clear, Steve Ditko and Stan Lee created Gwen Stacy, not Romita Sr.

And Romita Sr. as per Comic-Creators on Spider-Man and other interviews that Lee did, had some issues when he took over. His intention was to continue and maintain Ditko's approach as much as possible, while Lee was the one who wanted Romita Sr. to transform the style of the comic.

Lee often accused Romita Sr. of undercutting Gwen in favor of MJ and apparently, Romita Sr. wasn't too keen on altering the version of Gwen that Ditko created (i.e. haughty socialite and bully) in favor of a silver age girlfriend.

So Romita Sr. having been there at the start when Lee, in the words of the great Regina George, "tried to make fetch happen" was never really a believer in it. Romita Sr. said multiple times they kept getting letters from readers asking why they're wasting their time with Gwen when MJ was around.

Errr...we were talking MJ.

[Electricmastro]

The fact a comic from almost half a Century ago is still discussed, shows how well it is aged. As for your comments, You are 100% correct. It is about profitability and popularity. Former Yankee Manager Billy Martin put it best: “I do not care if my pitching rotation is Hitler, Mussolini and Stalin if they could win 20 games apiece.” As for Gwen, I do not think she sucks as a character ( original, Ghost-Spider and ( especially) Emma Stone), but in the opinion of most Spider-Man fans ( myself certainly included), she just does not measure up to MJ, and although Marvel tries and tries with Gwen, and tries and tries to get rid of MJ ( starting with Romita sr), they know deep down who most people prefer and that is MJ.

And this is in addition to how the trope of a loved one getting killed off is a trope writers use in general as a motivation to get stronger and become better people to do better, used with Batman who became popular, and with Uncle Ben for Spider-Man who also became popular in the first place. Even Stan Lee and Ernie Hart writing the origin of the Wasp had her dad get killed and have this line be spoken here:

“She’s changed! The bored flighty shell she wore is gone! She has determination, strength of character!” - Tales to Astonish #44 (June, 1963)





Now, if there are male writers out there purposefully writing female characters to lose their glory and become victims of tragedy out of a grudge against women, then they can be called out as they should and even risk losing their jobs in case they refuse to overcome their self-destructive ways, and be dealt with from there and perhaps even be used as a point of discussion as to how female characters can be handled more responsibly, but to accuse writers writing the girlfriend, wife, or daughter of a protagonist as inherently being misogynist because they died, despite as responsibly as it could have been handled and considering how dads have tragically lost their daughters in real life and the like, then that probably becomes a different matter entirely at that point.

[Kaitou D. Kid]

It's still a good story, but it's pretty lame as a Green Goblin story. There's this notion in the zeitgeist this is supposed to be Gobby's Killing Joke. His "ultimate" showdown with Spider-Man, the story that made him his archenemy, blah blah blah.

There is nothing to indicate this. It's not his strongest characterization, it's not even as strong as what came before. There isn't even talk of the things people usually associate with Green Goblin. The closest you get is Spider-Man yelling some lines about Gobby being elitist.

I suspect this reputation it has as a Green Goblin story is from 1) Gwen's death being so big and 2) Green Goblin dissapearing for 20 years after it.

It's maybe why some fans also wanted Norman to stay dead. I mean, if you go into it thinking you'll see him at his best, why would you want him back? He wasn't that interesting in what's supposed to be his "Killing Joke", so he has "clearly" outlived his usefulness.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

It's still a good story, but it's pretty lame as a Green Goblin story.

I agree but not for the reasons you say.

There's this notion in the zeitgeist this is supposed to be Gobby's Killing Joke. His "ultimate" showdown with Spider-Man, the story that made him his archenemy, blah blah blah.

Well, Green Goblin was Spider-Man's arch-enemy long before this. In the Steve Ditko run he made more appearances than any other villain, was the only bad guy who never got caught or got beaten by Spider-Man in a straight fight.

Green Goblin was chosen to kill Gwen because he was already the arch enemy, doing so wasn't done to elevate him, but to give Gwen a proper sendoff so she wouldn't have the indignity of being killed by say, The Gibbon.

It's maybe why some fans also wanted Norman to stay dead. I mean, if you go into it thinking you'll see him at his best, why would you want him back? He wasn't that interesting in what's supposed to be his "Killing Joke", so he has "clearly" outlived his usefulness.

Well obviously there was more to Goblin than just "The Night Gwen Stacy Died". Sam Raimi himself pointed this out:

Did the story get changed a few times?
Absolutely. David Koepp who had wrote the first script had a piece with the two villains being Elektro and the Sandman, I think they were leftovers from James Cameron’s treatment – which I like to call a ‘scriptment’. It was an 80-page treatment with these characters, but the thing is these characters weren’t my favorite. My favorite was actually the death of Gwen Stacey. Thing is, I didn’t particularly like the Gwen Stacey character, I liked the element of it, but liked Mary Jane Watson and The Green Goblin.
http://www.bookofthedead.ws/hosted/m...0MovieHole.htm

Sam Raimi's Goblin in the first Spider-Man was a pretty scary and terrifying villain, all without killing Gwen or MJ in place. Dafoe's Green Goblin by the way is the Spider-Man movie villain with the biggest on-screen body count.

[NC_Yankee]

And this is in addition to how the trope of a loved one getting killed off is a trope writers use in general as a motivation to get stronger and become better people to do better, used with Batman who became popular, and with Uncle Ben for Spider-Man who also became popular in the first place. Even Stan Lee and Ernie Hart writing the origin of the Wasp had her dad get killed and have this line be spoken here:

“She’s changed! The bored flighty shell she wore is gone! She has determination, strength of character!” - Tales to Astonish #44 (June, 1963)





Now, if there are male writers out there purposefully writing female characters to lose their glory and become victims of tragedy out of a grudge against women, then they can be called out as they should and even risk losing their jobs in case they refuse to overcome their self-destructive ways, and be dealt with from there and perhaps even be used as a point of discussion as to how female characters can be handled more responsibly, but to accuse writers writing the girlfriend, wife, or daughter of a protagonist as inherently being misogynist because they died, despite as responsibly as it could have been handled and considering how dads have tragically lost their daughters in real life and the like, then that probably becomes a different matter entirely at that point.

I admit to not being a woke person, and I am sure that there are men who dislike women and write that way. But to be fair, there are women who think Men Are Pigs and feel the same way. I saw a particularly bad movie called Paradise Hills where Emma Roberts killed a man named Son that a clone of hers ( played by Eliza Gonzalez) is supposed to marry. It was a bad fairytale mixed with Alice In Wonderland and The Stepford Wives. I only saw it because I am a Milla Jovovich completist and I think Eliza is hot. It was the worst film I ever saw in my life and it was written and directed by a woman. I wrote an entire critique of it on IMDB. But taking this to Spider-Man, death plays a huge role in his life. If someone took the Top 10 Spider-Man stories of All-Time, you can find death in half of them. In no particular order. The Death if Jean De Wolfe, Kraven's Last Hunt, The Kid Who Collected Spider-Man, The Death of Gwen Stacy and Amazing Fantasy 15. I would put ASM 122 The Death of Green Goblin in there as well ( but it is more of a personal opinion then a universally accepted fact so I will leave it out). Anyone can do the math; Three males died and two females died, so I do not see any anti-woman bias there. I just think it is people looking for something to punch a hole in ( even if it is not there).

[Kaitou D. Kid]

I agree but not for the reasons you say.



Well, Green Goblin was Spider-Man's arch-enemy long before this. In the Steve Ditko run he made more appearances than any other villain, was the only bad guy who never got caught or got beaten by Spider-Man in a straight fight.

Green Goblin was chosen to kill Gwen because he was already the arch enemy, doing so wasn't done to elevate him, but to give Gwen a proper sendoff so she wouldn't have the indignity of being killed by say, The Gibbon.

That's exactly what I said. The Green Goblin in ASM # 121-122 wasn't even as interesting as what came before from Lee/Ditko/Romita. The Green Goblin from 121-122 hardly has the depth people expect him to have.