How much has the X-Men as a reflection of real life minorities changed overtime?

[Alan2099]

if someone feels that their demographics disqualifies their opinion, maybe it does but that's exclusively on them to decide, that wasn't my question; I simply asked to put context to these answers. I have no qualms putting my background and perspective out there because I'm aware enough to know my background informs my perspective.

I'm sure nobody here feels their own background disqualifies their own opinion.

The problem comes from the fact that OTHER people are going to use that to dismiss their opinions. Somebody will say what their background is and somebody else will reply with "That's nothing. You don't know what it's like to really be discriminated against."

[BroHomo]

I'm sure nobody here feels their own background disqualifies their own opinion.

The problem comes from the fact that OTHER people are going to use that to dismiss their opinions. Somebody will say what their background is and somebody else will reply with "That's nothing. You don't know what it's like to really be discriminated against."

No one else already just assumes their baggage is greater than everyone's else's?

[lemonpeace]

I'm sure nobody here feels their own background disqualifies their own opinion.

The problem comes from the fact that OTHER people are going to use that to dismiss their opinions. Somebody will say what their background is and somebody else will reply with "That's nothing. You don't know what it's like to really be discriminated against."

that's a bad faith argument at that point. if you are speaking in a way that is logical and well reasoned, someone dismissing your opinion because you "aren't oppressed enough" is a nonsensical retort; the only person who can truly disqualify your opinion because of your demographic is yourself. I'm second generation Nigerian-American, I've seen injustice but I haven't experienced injustice on the level of say a gay person or person of color in Uganda or confederate America respectively. however, when speaking on oppression or socio-political concepts and issues I'm not hinging my arguments on just being African, I focus on what I know and what I've learn about the topic at hand.

if someone is making a point and starts to feel a type of way about someone trying to invalidate it because their identity, then maybe it's not a matter of the other person unjustly shutting them down but a matter of them not recognizing they're speaking from a place if ignorance of how their life experience undercuts their point. if you're making sense, you're making sense, a bad faith retort doesn't change that.

[BroHomo]

that's a bad faith argument at that point. if you are speaking in a way that is logical and well reasoned, someone dismissing your opinion because you "aren't oppressed enough" is a nonsensical retort; the only person who can truly disqualify your opinion because of your demographic is yourself. I'm second generation Nigerian-American, I've seen injustice but I haven't experienced injustice on the level of say a gay person or person of color in Uganda or confederate America respectively. however, when speaking on oppression or socio-political concepts and issues I'm not hinging my arguments on just being African, I focus on what I know and what I've learn about the topic at hand.

if someone is making a point and starts to feel a type of way about someone trying to invalidate it because their identity, then maybe it's not a matter of the other person unjustly shutting them down but a matter of them not recognizing they're speaking from a place if ignorance of how their life experience undercuts their point. if you're making sense, you're making sense, a bad faith retort doesn't change that.

Yeah well great post dude.
Just. Great.

[lemonpeace]

I TOTALLY feel ya on all this buuuut how deep should we go? my thoughts... believe it or nah go through a buncha different perspective filters before reaching you rabid fanpeople

so long as it informs your perspective, you can go as deep with how you describe your perspective on the topics at hand; go ham sandwich my dude. ideally, the most honest answer you can come up with.

[Electricmastro]

I'm sure nobody here feels their own background disqualifies their own opinion.

The problem comes from the fact that OTHER people are going to use that to dismiss their opinions. Somebody will say what their background is and somebody else will reply with "That's nothing. You don't know what it's like to really be discriminated against."

[BroHomo]

Yeah I think that's what we're all saying

[Zelena]

What is funny in that picture is that Charles Xavier was considered as a human without powers at this moment by the others human, and I recall well, he was asked how he could speak on behalf of mutants.
Well, he is a mutant but not the same kind of mutant as Nightcrawler who looks different and can be victim of immediate discrimination.

What would be the honest thing for him to do? Displaying a neon sign that says: "I'm a telepath, I can read your minds and control your body. But, don't be afraid, I won't do it. I'm a good guy." A bit long.
What is certain is he is the sort of mutant that can fuel human paranoia, a mutant that looks like a human, hidden in the crowd…
More a material for rumors and conspiracy theories than a metaphor for visible minority discrimination.

[Lucyinthesky]

I have mixed feelings about him saying he was human because on one hand: Yes he was a big defender of mutant rights and spoke person for them but he´s also not being really honest in his message because he´s still lying about being a mutant himself so once this lie was revealed all his good work was undone because how can the people that trusted him when he said he was human trust him now? after finding out he was lying about what he was? and for the mutants who kind of saw him as their defender it could also be a betrayal, because he could hide what he was, hence keep himself out of the trouble that being a mutant brings, while most of them don´t have that choice.

I think this was a case where his intentions were truly good but the consequences of his actions would come to haunt him because you can´t build a coexistence discourse with humans and mutants telling them they need to drop barriers when you are not willing to be honest about yourself. The X-men TAS cartoon touched a little on this, by making Bolivar trask reveal he was really mutant so automatically all he said about building bridges is seen as a mutant trap to make humans drop their guard.

[Zelena]

I have mixed feelings about him saying he was human because on one hand: Yes he was a big defender of mutant rights and spoke person for them but he´s also not being really honest in his message because he´s still lying about being a mutant himself so once this lie was revealed all his good work was undone because how can the people that trusted him when he said he was human trust him now? after finding out he was lying about what he was? and for the mutants who kind of saw him as their defender it could also be a betrayal, because he could hide what he was, hence keep himself out of the trouble that being a mutant brings, while most of them don´t have that choice.

Did he lie or didn't he say it? All right, it's, at least, a lie of omission. Because, when people see him so normal, people assume…
But, saying he was a mutant had consequences, the kind that could impair his goal to serve as a bridge between humans and mutants. So, once he didn't say it, his only possibility was to never say it. And indeed he didn't plan to do it.

There's another point: all his life, people, except his beloved X-men, never saw him as someone different, a threat, they saw him as a human, his self-perception has been shaped by it, so, in a way, he saw himself as one and certainly not as a caricature of human when an angry human shouts 'Mutant!' What is 'mutant' the name of, exactly? For a scientist like him, it has a scientific definition but he knew very well that it was not the case for most of people.

I liked him before because he refused labels and to be trapped by them.

I think this was a case where his intentions were truly good but the consequences of his actions would come to haunt him because you can´t build a coexistence discourse with humans and mutants telling them they need to drop barriers when you are not willing to be honest about yourself. The X-men TAS cartoon touched a little on this, by making Bolivar trask reveal he was really mutant so automatically all he said about building bridges is seen as a mutant trap to make humans drop their guard.

Once, the truth was revealed, the consequences had been damaging. Surely he could have foreseen that it was impossible to hide it forever (comics…)

[Electricmastro]

I have mixed feelings about him saying he was human because on one hand: Yes he was a big defender of mutant rights and spoke person for them but he´s also not being really honest in his message because he´s still lying about being a mutant himself so once this lie was revealed all his good work was undone because how can the people that trusted him when he said he was human trust him now? after finding out he was lying about what he was? and for the mutants who kind of saw him as their defender it could also be a betrayal, because he could hide what he was, hence keep himself out of the trouble that being a mutant brings, while most of them don´t have that choice.

I think this was a case where his intentions were truly good but the consequences of his actions would come to haunt him because you can´t build a coexistence discourse with humans and mutants telling them they need to drop barriers when you are not willing to be honest about yourself. The X-men TAS cartoon touched a little on this, by making Bolivar trask reveal he was really mutant so automatically all he said about building bridges is seen as a mutant trap to make humans drop their guard.

Well, I use the term human/mutant relations, but in thinking about it more closely, is really having an X-gene make one not count as a human at all, objectively speaking?

[Alan2099]

Well, I use the term human/mutant relations, but in thinking about it more closely, is really having an X-gene make one not count as a human at all, objectively speaking?

For most of the Marvel Universes history, being a mutant was being a human with powers.

In recent years, they seem to want to treat it like it's a different thing entirely.

[Lucyinthesky]

Did he lie or didn't he say it? All right, it's, at least, a lie of omission. Because, when people see him so normal, people assume…
But, saying he was a mutant had consequences, the kind that could impair his goal to serve as a bridge between humans and mutants. So, once he didn't say it, his only possibility was to never say it. And indeed he didn't plan to do it.

There's another point: all his life, people, except his beloved X-men, never saw him as someone different, a threat, they saw him as a human, his self-perception has been shaped by it, so, in a way, he saw himself as one and certainly not as a caricature of human when an angry human shouts 'Mutant!' What is 'mutant' the name of, exactly? For a scientist like him, it has a scientific definition but he knew very well that it was not the case for most of people.

I liked him before because he refused labels and to be trapped by them.
Once, the truth was revealed, the consequences had been damaging. Surely he could have foreseen that it was impossible to hide it forever (comics…)

I know, I just think that in his case given the kind of message he wanted to share,being honest from the beggining would have served him better because it would help to show his pov on how mutant and humans can coexist and having his school open to both of them.

For most of the Marvel Universes history, being a mutant was being a human with powers.

In recent years, they seem to want to treat it like it's a different thing entirely.

For most of the X-men history mutants were known as the "mutant race" it was Morrison who added the "mutant species" when it became more complicated to say for sure what mutants are in the MU. I personally think "mutant race" serves for a better definition of what they are,because they are still part of the human species.

[Electricmastro]

What is funny in that picture is that Charles Xavier was considered as a human without powers at this moment by the others human, and I recall well, he was asked how he could speak on behalf of mutants.
Well, he is a mutant but not the same kind of mutant as Nightcrawler who looks different and can be victim of immediate discrimination.

What would be the honest thing for him to do? Displaying a neon sign that says: "I'm a telepath, I can read your minds and control your body. But, don't be afraid, I won't do it. I'm a good guy." A bit long.
What is certain is he is the sort of mutant that can fuel human paranoia, a mutant that looks like a human, hidden in the crowd…
More a material for rumors and conspiracy theories than a metaphor for visible minority discrimination.

Well I think I’ve said something like this before, but I think that something like that wasn’t very much directly addressed in the Marvel Universe until Civil War came along, because as all over the place as it got, I understood that the original intention was basically keeping superpowered people in check, so that people like Purple Man aren’t freely mind-controlling anyone and so on and so forth, which even Operation: Zero Tolerance opposer J. Jonah Jameson was in favor of I recall, because it’s not that he’s prejudiced against superpowered people, but that he values responsibility and keeping people in check.

Perhaps if it had gone in a different way, Civil War might have led to it being less likely of Onslaught appearing, making it less likely for mutants like Namor flooding entire civilizations, or making it less likely for Wolverine to go into ballistic modes after receiving proper help so that he doesn’t involuntarily hurt anyone, but that’s not really what Civil War had in mind from the start, was it? Instead, at least as so far as I could tell, was that it basically made out just about everyone being passive-aggressive cynics, regardless as to who was right or who was wrong. If writers and editors at Marvel weren’t so strike to dial-up so much to the drastic and extreme, I’m sure the Marvel Universe would play out in such a way that it would reflect our reality more, even though mutants don’t exist in our reality, but as is, they latch more onto the drastic and extreme nonetheless seemingly because that’s what most quickly gets peoples’ attention, which is arguably a sort of approach they go with to this day, even with Hickman’s Krakoa.

[BroHomo]

Well I think I’ve said something like this before, but I think that something like that wasn’t very much directly addressed in the Marvel Universe until Civil War came along, because as all over the place as it got, I understood that the original intention was basically keeping superpowered people in check, so that people like Purple Man aren’t freely mind-controlling anyone and so on and so forth, which even Operation: Zero Tolerance opposer J. Jonah Jameson was in favor of I recall, because it’s not that he’s prejudiced against superpowered people, but that he values responsibility and keeping people in check.

Perhaps if it had gone in a different way, Civil War might have led to it being less likely of Onslaught appearing, making it less likely for mutants like Namor flooding entire civilizations, or making it less likely for Wolverine to go into ballistic modes after receiving proper help so that he doesn’t involuntarily hurt anyone, but that’s not really what Civil War had in mind from the start, was it? Instead, at least as so far as I could tell, was that it basically made out just about everyone being passive-aggressive cynics, regardless as to who was right or who was wrong. If writers and editors at Marvel weren’t so strike to dial-up so much to the drastic and extreme, I’m sure the Marvel Universe would play out in such a way that it would reflect our reality more, even though mutants don’t exist in our reality, but as is, they latch more onto the drastic and extreme nonetheless seemingly because that’s what most quickly gets peoples’ attention, which is arguably a sort of approach they go with to this day, even with Hickman’s Krakoa.

lol I'd say its pretty much inline with out universe