Frank Miller and Raphael Grampa launch TDK: The Golden Child

[Lasil]

More Frank Miller written Superman is the last thing I want but this thing about Jon is only a troubling if you don't know Superman's history. He's had dozens of kids with different women and the same name has been used more than once.

[manwhohaseverything]

Clark died when his identity was outed. Superman died in the Fortress.

Jordan Elliot isn't a disguise. It was who he had become.

Jon Smith became Jon Kent. Jonathan Elliot never did.
Jon Smith had Superman as a father. Jonathan Elliot didn't.

Nope! Elliott is a identity he chose because he can't be kent. Jon Smith regained kent surname because of mxy shenanigans. Why kent specifically? Because kents is who they are. If the same thing happened in that world. Lois and clark will choose kent surname in that world too.
As for not being superman, i thought clark kent was superman regardless of his powers. The reason his kid got powers.

[Lasil]

Nope! Elliott is a identity he chose because he can't be kent. Jon Smith regained kent surname because of mxy shenanigans. Why kent specifically? Because kents is who they are. If the same thing happened in that world. Lois and clark will choose kent surname in that world too.
As for not being superman, i thought clark kent was superman regardless of his powers. The reason his kid got powers.

The Earth-one Superman was different.

Clark Kent was an identity he created. Once that identity was exposed he abandoned it because it became useless to him. After Superman killed Mxy, that identity was abandoned. Elliot was a new creation that had his own thoughts. He talked about Superman in the third person, because Superman was a different person to him. Clark Kent died and then Superman died.

The "Kent is who I am" comes from the post-crisis character.

Jon Smith was Jon Kent before he and his family moved to the Nu52 world.

Jonathan Elliot was born to that name and family and he would live with that name and family. Jonathan was not a Kent or El because both of them had been dead for years before he was born.

[manwhohaseverything]

The Earth-one Superman was different.

Clark Kent was an identity he created. Once that identity was exposed he abandoned it because it became useless to him. After Superman killed Mxy, that identity was abandoned. Elliot was a new creation that had his own thoughts. He talked about Superman in the third person, because Superman was a different person to him. Clark Kent died and then Superman died.

The "Kent is who I am" comes from the post-crisis character.

Jon Smith was Jon Kent before he and his family moved to the Nu52 world.

Jonathan Elliot was born to that name and family and he would live with that name and family. Jonathan was not a Kent or El because both of them had been dead for years before he was born.

how so? Clark kent is the name given to him by his adopted parents(i know after the whole orphanage bit) . Otherwise, the name Jonathan wouldn't be important. But, still clark kent was still part of his identity.him addressing himself in third person. I took it as him being all "that was entire life time ago" kind of thing.

I know how he has the whole clumsy "clark kent" act that he created. But, i am not talking about that. He was only forced to abandoned this persona. Real clark kent will always be part of his identity in a way Elliott wouldn't. Elliott is name of necessity like the clumsy "clark kent" persona.

I am not talking about post crisis"kent is who i am, superman is just what i do" interpretation . Even in golden age, Clark came to know he was kal much later. I guess, this comes down to who or what do you mean by clark kent?clumsy persona is not clark. It is a disguise. The real clark kent is superman.

Jon Elliott only lives that way because there is no other option. Therefore, it becomes a disguise like clumsy clark persona. If options are given clark would have given him jon kent name. Death of grandfather's does not mean anything. There are people who take the names to honor their legacy. This is like saying grandson of flash Gordon wouldn't be a Gordon because his grandparent had died.

[Lasil]

how so? Clark kent is the name given to him by his adopted parents(i know after the whole orphanage bit) . Otherwise, the name Jonathan wouldn't be important. But, still clark kent was still part of his identity.him addressing himself in third person. I took it as him being all "that was entire life time ago" kind of thing.

I know how he has the whole clumsy "clark kent" act that he created. But, i am not talking about that. He was only forced to abandoned this persona. Real clark kent will always be part of his identity in a way Elliott wouldn't. Elliott is name of necessity like the clumsy "clark kent" persona.

I am not talking about post crisis"kent is who i am, superman is just what i do" interpretation . Even in golden age, Clark came to know he was kal much later. I guess, this comes down to who or what do you mean by clark kent?clumsy persona is not clark. It is a disguise. The real clark kent is superman.

Jon Elliott only lives that way because there is no other option. Therefore, it becomes a disguise like clumsy clark persona. If options are given clark would have given him jon kent name. Death of grandfather's does not mean anything. There are people who take the names to honor their legacy. This is like saying grandson of flash Gordon wouldn't be a Gordon because his grandparent had died.

Earth-two Superman is different to earth-one Superman and post-crisis Superman. He created the fake Clark Kent persona and acted like the real Clark Kent when he was Superman.

Earth-one Superman is a different beast. He was Kal-El before he was Clark Kent, he grew up on Krypton and knew his parents. The identities he created weren't only fakes to keep a secret, they were different people occupying the same space. When Clark Kent's secret was exposed, the identity was abandoned because it meant he died. He didn't stop wearing the Superman costume and call himself Clark, because Clark was gone and Superman was left. After Superman kills Mxy, Superman kills himself and a new creation Jordan Elliot takes over.

He named himself after Jor-El and his son after Jonathan because Superman and Clark were still important to him but he isn't them. Lois wasn't lying when she said she never saw Superman again. Jordan is not Superman pretending to be a normal person. He is a normal person that was born when Superman died. Lois does not call him Clark, or Kal or Superman in private because he isn't any of those people. He is Jordan Elliot.

[Flash Gordon]

Looks cool, I'll check it out. I miss Miller's own art though.

I just reread DKR for the first time in a long time. Man, that book is great. Maybe even more so in 2019.

[Nelliebly]

More Frank Miller written Superman is the last thing I want but this thing about Jon is only a troubling if you don't know Superman's history. He's had dozens of kids with different women and the same name has been used more than once.

He’s had one biological canon child and one adopted child. Lois Lane was his wife and the child’s mother both times. Clearly different than random AU’s or one offs. That’s like saying “Superman has been married lots of times over the years!” As if that’s the same as Lois and Clark being married for decades in canon and their marriage being central to the narrative. You are comparing random one offs with no real narrative impact to actual narrative with years of canon behind it now. Come on.

I don’t think it’s remotely unreasonable to suggest that maybe Frank could have had a little respect and picked a different name this time out given that, yes, there already is a Jon Kent in canon in the DC Universe and he has a legitimate following and a completely different mother. Because again, women are not just interchangeable entities but crap like this suggests they are in the eyes of a lot of people.

[hellacre]

There's nothing wrong with it. Its not the first time Jonathan has been used for an alternate version of Superman's son whose mother wasn't Lois. Earth-22 Superman and Wonder Woman had a son named Jonathan decades ago, for example. Its never been any sort of exclusive thing. I could see maybe considering avoiding the name and choosing something else if the character was being created right now (but even then I don't think its a big deal), but he was already established with the name Jonathan in DKIII. Too late to change it now even if they wanted to.

Miller's Jonathan was introduced in 2015. His name was used back then. The Master Race was among the best selling books of those years. So the readers of the DK verse are very familiar with him. If Jurgens wanted exclusive dibs he should have said something but I doubt it works that way. I also have a feeling Miller had the name lined up before Jurgens given we know the sloppy way they pitched Jon without any real plan for him as revealed by Jurgens himself.

Also this is not some great precedence. Remember Lyta? She was Diana and Steve's kid pre crisis. Then she was Steppenwolf's and Earth 2 Diana. I am sure there are evil Jon Kents around too maybe with different moms or origins. And there is a Damien in the Brave and Bold animated series who is Catwoman's and Batman's son, even we know he often is Talia/ Bats son.

Diana conceived in 2001 in the DKSA. Also in 1999 there was Jonathan Kent 11 aka Hyperman in The Kingdom. So the idea of them having a child called Jonathan is expected I would say given the popularity of Kingdom Come . Also preflashpoint DC was adamant Clark could not conceive with humans given the alien dna was not compatible with human and Miller verse Clark says terrans are too fragile... I assume, to carry a Kryptonian baby would be dangerous.

As with the name of Lara, being used for their first born daughter, Jonathan is a name Clark would name his first son as long as the partner was okay with it. It is simply Clark loves his Pa and Diana, in this case, knowing the good man Pa Kent was, would agree as a way to honor him. She does not have a father figure in her life either so I assume she would be fine with it. Wonder Woman has never been anti men like many of her sisters anyway. Her entire hx shows that she is open minded, loving person who does not judge anyone on their race or gender or religion etc . It's as someone pointed out...many people have names picked out long before they meet a partner.

And didn't Moore have plans to have Clark and Diana marry in Twilight of Superheroes and have kids? And he was a big supporter of the concept of Hypertime as well. His proposal is there for all to read online. I doubt very much he of all people was rigid in thinking how stories should be.

[Last Son of Krypton]

Miller's Jonathan was introduced in 2015. His name was used back then. The Master Race was among the best selling books of those years. So the readers of the DK verse are very familiar with him. If Jurgens wanted exclusive dibs he should have said something but I doubt it works that way. I also have a feeling Miller had the name lined up before Jurgens given we know the sloppy way they pitched Jon without any real plan for him as revealed by Jurgens himself.

Master Race was announced in April 2015: https://www.dccomics.com/blog/2015/0...urns-to-batman As stated by Azzarello in the announcement him and Miller were working on it already from 6 months. That's a lot of time before Convergence came out or was even written.

[Deiasilva10]

Miller's Jonathan was introduced in 2015. His name was used back then. The Master Race was among the best selling books of those years. So the readers of the DK verse are very familiar with him. If Jurgens wanted exclusive dibs he should have said something but I doubt it works that way. I also have a feeling Miller had the name lined up before Jurgens given we know the sloppy way they pitched Jon without any real plan for him as revealed by Jurgens himself.

Also this is not some great precedence. Remember Lyta? She was Diana and Steve's kid pre crisis. Then she was Steppenwolf's and Earth 2 Diana. I am sure there are evil Jon Kents around too maybe with different moms or origins. And there is a Damien in the Brave and Bold animated series who is Catwoman's and Batman's son, even we know he often is Talia/ Bats son.

Diana conceived in 2001 in the DKSA. Also in 1999 there was Jonathan Kent 11 aka Hyperman in The Kingdom. So the idea of them having a child called Jonathan is expected I would say given the popularity of Kingdom Come . Also preflashpoint DC was adamant Clark could not conceive with humans given the alien dna was not compatible with human and Miller verse Clark says terrans are too fragile... I assume, to carry a Kryptonian baby would be dangerous.

As with the name of Lara, being used for their first born daughter, Jonathan is a name Clark would name his first son as long as the partner was okay with it. It is simply Clark loves his Pa and Diana, in this case, knowing the good man Pa Kent was, would agree as a way to honor him. She does not have a father figure in her life either so I assume she would be fine with it. Wonder Woman has never been anti men like many of her sisters anyway. Her entire hx shows that she is open minded, loving person who does not judge anyone on their race or gender or religion etc . It's as someone pointed out...many people have names picked out long before they meet a partner.

And didn't Moore have plans to have Clark and Diana marry in Twilight of Superheroes and have kids? And he was a big supporter of the concept of Hypertime as well. His proposal is there for all to read online. I doubt very much he of all people was rigid in thinking how stories should be.

Wonder Woman is here to show how men and women can be equal, she is not here to hate men. Moore had ideas for SM and WW married and with SM in love with her. It makes perfect sense for a son of SM to be named Jonathan and a daughter Lara or Martha, or, perhaps, as Diana's daughter, to be called Lyta, although we don't know what is Diana's relationship with her mother in the Millerverse

[Nelliebly]

Master Race was announced in April 2015: https://www.dccomics.com/blog/2015/0...urns-to-batman Azzarello and Miller were working on it already from 6 months. That's a lot of time before Convergence came out or was even written.

Wrong. Superman Convergence was dated April 8, 2015 and was announced, with a photo of Lois pregnant mind you, several months before. In the winter. Now, we can get in a he said/she said battle about who had the idea first but the reality is that Jurgens and Tomasi beat Miller to the punch here and, at this point, Jon has been an established and popular character in the Superman books for more than 4 years running.

It’s meaningless to argue Frank had the idea first because one, I’m pretty sure Jurgens would dispute that fact given what I know and, two, there is such a thing as common courtesy when someone just plain beats you to the punch. At this point, in 2019, Miller should have had the decency to just use a different name. It’s less confusing and it’s a hell of a lot more respectful to Jurgens, Tomasi and the entire Rebirth team.

[hellacre]

Master Race was announced in April 2015: https://www.dccomics.com/blog/2015/0...urns-to-batman Azzarello and Miller were working on it already from 6 months. That's a lot of time before Convergence came out or was even written.

Thanks.

And given what we know about Golden Child...this been brewing a while. Bleeding Cool broke it a year ago when Miller announced it at a con in Europe. https://www.bleedingcool.com/2018/10...-golden-child/

If you look at Grampa's IG looks like he was meeting with Miller (and Azzarello ) before DK3 was published.

[Lasil]

He’s had one biological canon child and one adopted child. Lois Lane was his wife and the child’s mother both times. Clearly different than random AU’s or one offs. That’s like saying “Superman has been married lots of times over the years!” As if that’s the same as Lois and Clark being married for decades in canon and their marriage being central to the narrative. You are comparing random one offs with no real narrative impact to actual narrative with years of canon behind it now. Come on.

I don’t think it’s remotely unreasonable to suggest that maybe Frank could have had a little respect and picked a different name this time out given that, yes, there already is a Jon Kent in canon in the DC Universe and he has a legitimate following and a completely different mother. Because again, women are not just interchangeable entities but crap like this suggests they are in the eyes of a lot of people.

In Pre-Crisis canon Superman married and fathered a son and daughter before arriving on Earth. It isn't a story people remember but it is part of that Superman's canonical history.

Narrative impact and canon can change at a moment's notice. Reading Convergence Superman I never thought that Superman and his family would become the main versions but they did. The canon Jon Kent before that was a clone created with the DNA of Superman and Lois and had his own comic for a while. Now he never existed.

IMO, everything from the character's history is up for grabs. Canon or not.

I don't like Frank Miller writing Superman. IMO, he planted the seeds that destroyed the character but another Jon Kent in the Multiverse is no big deal.

[Nelliebly]

Wonder Woman is here to show how men and women can be equal, she is not here to hate men. Moore had ideas for SM and WW married and with SM in love with her. It makes perfect sense for a son of SM to be named Jonathan and a daughter Lara or Martha, or, perhaps, as Diana's daughter, to be called Lyta, although we don't know what is Diana's relationship with her mother in the Millerverse

Dismantling patriarchal norms has literally nothing to do with hating men and literally no one ever said that Wonder Woman hates men so it’s weird that that was your takeaway. But that’s not what patriarchy means at all.

Also, Marston actually didn’t believe that men and women were equal. He actually believed in female supremacy and his grand daughter, Christy Marston, has been pretty vocal about he family’s displeasure and dislike of the Superman/WW pairing. Of course, so has the Siegel family with Laura Siegel coming out vehemently against it. Both the families are pretty clear that they view it as an abomination so best to not pull on ::that:: thread.

Moore viewed Superman and WW as essentially dictators corrupted by power who had completely lost touch with humanity and weren’t the best people so I’m not sure you really want that as part of your argument either. He wasn’t drafting a great romance, he was writing a cynical story about absolute power corrupting absolutely. But ok.

[Nelliebly]

In Pre-Crisis canon Superman married and fathered a son and daughter before arriving on Earth. It isn't a story people remember but it is part of that Superman's canonical history.

Narrative impact and canon can change at a moment's notice. Reading Convergence Superman I never thought that Superman and his family would become the main versions but they did. The canon Jon Kent before that was a clone created with the DNA of Superman and Lois and had his own comic for a while. Now he never existed.

IMO, everything from the character's history is up for grabs. Canon or not.

I don't like Frank Miller writing Superman. IMO, he planted the seeds that destroyed the character but another Jon Kent in the Multiverse is no big deal.

We don’t agree on this but I do appreciate you articulating your view and I definitely get your point about the changing canon. Thanks!