Lorna Dane: Polaris Appreciation 2020

[salarta]

But he's an indestructible exploding mountain that Lorna's powers work on to nuture as we have seen with her bond with Krakoa. If done well this should be like no other mother son relationship but i guess the key word is if done well. How krakoa is an island i'm imagining rockslide growing into a huge mountain as though Lorna's child will shape the land itself. But i guess im thinking big. lol.

Again, it comes down to timing and circumstances. I'll use hypotheticals for my point. Not saying "Marvel has to do things this exact way," but to get across the broad concept.

If Lorna had just gotten off a solo book, or heck maybe even during said book, Lorna suddenly having a child would be a good next step. In this scenario, you would have a baseline of who she is and what she's about. You've seen her character history acknowledged, past mistreatment corrected, potential without a child explored. At that point, makes sense to see her move forward with raising a child. Passing down what she's learned, helping them become the most of themselves, just as she's done in her own life.

Doing this kind of story now can easily wreck the character.

Marvel hasn't acknowledged her experience with Genosha in 15 years. Marvel still ignores that she's been part of the franchise since 1968, second woman to join the X-Men. We don't even know her adoptive parents' first names or have any idea what they look like, nevermind what her life was like between plane crash and X-Men #49. We have 52 years worth of untapped stories and wasted potential that needs to be explored (or set right in the case of mistreatment). Introducing a child sidelines ALL of that in favor of reducing her to stories about the child, or stories that could include the child. Want a hypothetical story where she's a lone wolf? Well too bad, she's got a kid now, she has to stay home with him and take care of him.

[Leirus]

It reminds me of what was done with Angel after he died in X-Force and I found that to be incredibly cringeworthy, especially since I was a fan of the original

The Rockslide thing is however pretty clearly stablished to be a tragedy, several times this issue. Emma even shows up to hammer the point. Rockslide is dead. This is, for all intents, a new character.

[Havok83]

The Rockslide thing is however pretty clearly stablished to be a tragedy, several times this issue. Emma even shows up to hammer the point. Rockslide is dead. This is, for all intents, a new character.

As was Warren. Its not going to last but for the time being it is the current status quo

[Leirus]

As was Warren. Its not going to last but for the time being it is the current status quo

Warren is an O5. Rockslide however... What happened to "young" Angel anyway? Did he not die during Bunncanny?

[jmc247]

Issue #5 of X-Factor was an improvement for Lorna from her depiction in issue #4, but that is not a significant feat. I think this story may be setting up the entrance of some foreign psionic entity like The Shadow King into the story. Daken's discussion with Lorna was a positive, but talking about Lorna like they are brother-sister seems like an early epiphany without quite enough on panel development making it more of a tell instead of show issue. The idea does promote the over all concept thematically of Rachel - Lorna - Daken as the second generation behind Wolverine - Jean - Mags.

I think most people that know much about Lorna are aware she survived the Genoshan genocide and Marvel should be acknowledging and using it, it's just that Marvel chooses to completely ignore it because it's inconvenient for their view of her as a random D-lister from the 90s. All the problems Lorna has of key history ignored, potential wasted, etc comes down to Marvel refusing to set aside their negative biases and take a genuine look at her.

I think Uncanny X-Men #442-443 captured her philosophical stance well, by showing that she's not hardline Magneto or Xavier (in the traditional sense), but somewhere in between. It goes back to her introductory story in X-Men #49-50 setting her up as struggling between siding with the "morally good" X-Men or "obeying the evil blood" of her father.

UXM #443 was really the defining issue for Lorna of me of that era because she managed to articulate her worldview and when and why she believed revolution was acceptable. I think the middle ground issue as I said only works when Magneto is not also a middle ground character. Pegging Lorna to whatever Magneto is doing is too self limiting for her as she needs her own semi core values and ideas.

So much of her history has been focused on how she can be misused to benefit anyone that isn't her, ESPECIALLY male characters. Back when Gifted put forth its pregnancy plot for its version of Lorna, in its very first episode, I was immediately leery of that idea because I could see how very easily it had the potential to basically turn her into a supporting character for the baby, killing off everything else possible for her in the process. I was proven right with Gifted season 2.

The Gifted season two killed off Lorna's story by reducing her to Eclipse's wayward baby momma the second they brought on a new character to be the foil for the Underground and decided that season one Lorna wasn't the real Lorna in Nix's words. Not real Lorna was the very popular and interesting Lorna. Bringing on Reeva didn't have to kill Lorna's story if they turned her into the Fabian Cortez as in the more radical manipulator taking over the Hellfire Club (yes they should have used the name) from Lorna and Esme's grasp.

Instead they removed Esme and more so Lorna's spine and ovaries. For Lorna her demotion to a foot soldier left her only with complaining and momma and Eclipse issues so she became the Inner Circle's season one Catlin Strucker. Season one Lorna was an international hit because she was a woman on a mission and showed the kind of emotional strength and purpose that was absent from her character in season 2.

I will say in terms of any medium Lorna with a big idea she is striving for works much better for her story then her being motivated only by interpersonal relationships.

[allthingzamasing]

Good to see you on the thread. What was your favorite Genosha related story/ideas for Lorna? I will say one of the issues has had really since the end of 2004 for those who want Lorna to be a middle ground character which she was in 2004 was Magneto returned as a middle ground version of his old Genosha/Fatal Attractions self and he has stayed a middle ground version of his old self. That didn't leave any room for Lorna to be a middle ground version at all without writing her really out of character and much more like Jean then post Genosha Lorna.

True, the reason Magneto’s kind of gone to this middle ground is mainly because he’s become insanely popular and popular villlains get turned into ‘heroes’ or anti-heroes. So this does make it complicated and difficult to put Lorna in her rightful place, and if you were to do that you would need to emphasize and highlight the fact that yes, she is Magneto’s daughter...but she is also her own person with her own personalities and place her somewhere she she shines on her own away from her father(Alex goes without saying)and then try and(for lack of a better term)re-integrate her into being a mainstream X-Man member who actively participates in important events and is respected by people...but will Marvel ever do that? Maybe. Will they do it anytime soon? Probably not.

I don’t know, I think a lot of people can relate to Lorna, a lot of millennials, because Life is a Struggle, but we all have the inner-strength to make it through while making a difference.

[allthingzamasing]

Good to see you on the thread. What was your favorite Genosha related story/ideas for Lorna? I will say one of the issues has had really since the end of 2004 for those who want Lorna to be a middle ground character which she was in 2004 was Magneto returned as a middle ground version of his old Genosha/Fatal Attractions self and he has stayed a middle ground version of his old self. That didn't leave any room for Lorna to be a middle ground version at all without writing her really out of character and much more like Jean then post Genosha Lorna.

You see the Lorna in my fan fiction is shady in the background, but in the light and in public she seems like a pure-hearted Princess...here is kind of an excerpt from my fanfic, from when she presents her idea to terraform Genosha to the Council. BTW, this is just a rough draft, just me jotting down stuff and I’ll probably change MANY things later.

“ Hello, brow-beaten-bookkeepers! In less than a century everyone on Earth will be a mutant. And, truly, it would be a pity if Krakoa, or PURE Krakoa influence, stretched to such limited boarders. So, the ultimate goal of Krakoa is expansion...certainly not TOTAL DOMINATION. And this project, essentially, jumpstarts that. My VERY ORIGINAL idea is to krakoaform(with a wink), to terraform, the ‘foreign’ and ‘free’ land of Genosha. The goal is to create a society that is run by mutants and lives off of mutants' ideals, government, politics, and culture. And as of stands such things are in question. There is no solid answer for these aspects of sentient life when speaking of Krakoa, where in contrast there is for, say, England does not have such problems for this is entirely established. But Krakoa can become in such a way one day, such things take time. And I know what everyone has in their minds ‘what if it turns out like last time’ and a second Genosha Genocide occurs. But such a thing hasn’t happened on Krakoa, well for now at least, because precautions were taken and the same can be done on Genosha. From the beginning. Instead of focusing on world domination(glances at Magneto)that can be focused and it won’t be so difficult with the power of myself and my allies.

What allies do you mean?(Emma asks her)

I was getting there. Some allies of mine are on this very Council others, most reside permanently on Krakoa, are not and can be construed/categorized as but I can keep them in check—I mean on the right, the divine path easily enough. Now, now everyone with above average intelligence can figure out that the sentient creatures classified as human beings will see this as a move of aggression, possibility even an act of war. So to rectify this issue humans and mutants alike can be welcome. This gives the world the opportunity to experience and live how mutants have been living on Krakoa, well maybe not JUST like on Krakoa but they’ll never know. Many mutants will be attracted there as well, why? Well one law says ‘Make Mutants’ and many people have done just that...and are having families. And, no offense, but tree houses are not the ideal place to raise a family. Of course certain members on this council will want to micromanage this project and will likely want someone trustworthy and highly associated with mutants who can be classified as peacemakers if not a member of the Quiet Council itself on the scene to keep watch of this, so I propose Exodus and Rachel Grey if you all accept. And who better to put in charge of managing this difficult task than a Genosha Princess like myself?

It’s good in theory. But what about the manpower needed, how impractical and unreasonable it is, and the biggest obstacle being the cost of all of this? How should those problems be solved in the future?

(Lorna waved them off)Those minor issues have already been solved.

How? Because at this rate it sounds like The Krakoa treasury’s funds will have to be used to fund this entire ‘project’. Last time I checked you didn’t have access to billion dollars at the tip of your finger tips.

Well, not at this very moment—

So you lied?

I wouldn’t say I lied...I just stretched the truth, like a plastic band, in a fashion that could seem suspicious and like a fib of our shared language. And if you would have let me finish I was going to say that I will have access to such funds, though I certainly wouldn’t mind of you all helped in your great generosity, in approximately two weeks.

How?

They will be transferred to my accounts.

But How? And why?

Don’t worry about it. I have my ways. As I was saying, Genosha can be considered a principality or independent state of Krakoa if you wish it. That way the United Nations and the other human legislative councils won’t have to get involved. So...are you guys going to take a vote or what?”

Do you see all that shadiness? So much fun...

As for the funding we’ll after Sebastian Shaw is out of the picture, not only is there need for a New Black King, but a leader for Shaw’s company...Shaw Industries...which goes to his son Shinobi, which to me is a misguided character as his father lied to him about who killed him. So once that is cleared up, he takes his father’s place and Polaris and Shinobi have an alliance where Polaris buys stock in a HUGE portion of Shaw Industries that’s the money she’s talking about towards the end.

Sometimes writing my fanfic and reading others makes me MAD at how Marvel treats Lorna, but heat can you do? Marvel hire me! (Even though I’m an underaged teenager)I will make everyone fall in love with Polaris!

[jmc247]

Sometimes writing my fanfic and reading others makes me MAD at how Marvel treats Lorna, but heat can you do? Marvel hire me! (Even though I’m an underaged teenager)I will make everyone fall in love with Polaris!

I hope you get your shot. Though just know if someone at Marvel is watching they can't use your specific idea for Lorna you write about here unless they hire you if they see the idea because of liability.

Lorna having a clear overarching mission has always helped the character.

[allthingzamasing]

I hope you get your shot. Though just know if someone at Marvel is watching they can't use your specific idea for Lorna you write about here unless they hire you if they see the idea because of liability.

Lorna having a clear overarching mission has always helped the character.

Agreed, being kind of frefalling (in terms of set goals they may have) May work for say Jeans, Scott, Logan, even Magneto TO AND EXTENT...but not with Lorna...or just any character that a casual comic fan cannot think of off the top of her head. Not to dog on Lorna because IMHO Lorna should be an A or B lister character, but the way Marvel uses her...but yes I agree with you about Lorna having a clear path she wishes to walk on, not sig zags covered in rock, dirt, metal, and havoc(get it?.

P.D if I ever did write for Marvel comics, I can garaunte you that 1, 25% of the things I write would be characters chilling out in down time and not just back to back action like comics nowadays(I know I’m very young, but I’ve gone back and read a LOT of stuff like the other day I was reading when Jean and Ororo just spent the day together in some of Storm’s earliest appearances in Giant Size X-Men which I really appreciated)and reflecting on things that have happened in the past. And it would be driven on the characters themselves and not just action and storylines and plot, characters make a story IMHO. And 2, Every character who is not a typical good-goodie(for lack of a better term)but everyone THINKS they are a goodie-goodie because Marvel doesn’t take the time to flesh out their personality, I would make them have a shady side. And if I wrote Magneto...it would be over with...people would see sides to him that they’ve never seen before, I would do crazy things to anyone and everyone that you would either LOVE or HATE. No In-between.

Okay, rant over...for now.

[salarta]

To follow up from what jmc said, Williams confirmed recently that ideas can't be used if they're sent directly to them.

There's still ambiguity as to other factors, like if they can use ideas not sent directly to them (e.g. if they happen to look at a CBR post and see it), or what would be too specific. CBR used to have Marvel people actively on the board, e.g. when Bunn had his own sub board, but nowadays we really don't know if any of them are looking here or not. It's best to err on the side of caution.

I think it's perfectly fine to post such things on social media (like Twitter and Tumblr) and of course make fanfics, though.

In terms of posting here, I'm doing a couple things. One, I'm keeping some comments grounded in what has already happened in the comics. For example, I don't think saying "Lorna should philosophically be between traditional Xavier and Magneto" is a problem when I point out Marvel already did that with her in Uncanny X-Men #442-443. It's not a new idea I came up with. It's an idea Marvel came up with and I'm just pointing out their past work. Two, I'm mentally comparing how you would expect Marvel to behave for similar scenarios with other characters. If someone said "Marvel needs to do more concerning Magneto's history with the Holocaust," or "Marvel should do more with Weapon X for Wolverine," would you reasonably expect a writer to see that and think "Whoops, guess I have to pretend the Holocaust never happened to Magneto?" Of course you wouldn't. Therefore, saying "Marvel needs to acknowledge and use Lorna's history with the Genoshan genocide" should be fine too. Marvel thinking otherwise would be blatant bias, possibly to the point of sexism.

I also think there can be exceptions, depending on circumstances. In criticism/complaint, sometimes "this is bad" and explaining why it's bad isn't enough. Sometimes you need to give an example of what would be better for a point of comparison. Fundamentally, we're dealing with creative writing. There are "rules" to creative writing, but those same rules can easily be broken for the right reasons if the writer knows what they're doing. Just think through the potential impact of what's being said.

[Havok83]

Issue #5 of X-Factor was an improvement for Lorna from her depiction in issue #4, but that is not a significant feat. I think this story may be setting up the entrance of some foreign psionic entity like The Shadow King into the story. Daken's discussion with Lorna was a positive, but talking about Lorna like they are brother-sister seems like an early epiphany without quite enough on panel development making it more of a tell instead of show issue. The idea does promote the over all concept thematically of Rachel - Lorna - Daken as the second generation behind Wolverine - Jean - Mags.

People are putting too much into his line. Daken doesnt view Lorna as a sister. He was diminishing hr bc he was trying to get in Aurora's pants. Calling her a sister does that by showing that he isnt sexually attracted to her

[jwatson]

Again, it comes down to timing and circumstances. I'll use hypotheticals for my point. Not saying "Marvel has to do things this exact way," but to get across the broad concept.

If Lorna had just gotten off a solo book, or heck maybe even during said book, Lorna suddenly having a child would be a good next step. In this scenario, you would have a baseline of who she is and what she's about. You've seen her character history acknowledged, past mistreatment corrected, potential without a child explored. At that point, makes sense to see her move forward with raising a child. Passing down what she's learned, helping them become the most of themselves, just as she's done in her own life.

Doing this kind of story now can easily wreck the character.

Marvel hasn't acknowledged her experience with Genosha in 15 years. Marvel still ignores that she's been part of the franchise since 1968, second woman to join the X-Men. We don't even know her adoptive parents' first names or have any idea what they look like, nevermind what her life was like between plane crash and X-Men #49. We have 52 years worth of untapped stories and wasted potential that needs to be explored (or set right in the case of mistreatment). Introducing a child sidelines ALL of that in favor of reducing her to stories about the child, or stories that could include the child. Want a hypothetical story where she's a lone wolf? Well too bad, she's got a kid now, she has to stay home with him and take care of him.

I can definitely see that point but i can also see how an indestructible mountain that depends on lorna but isn't dependant on lorna can help her grow in the exact areas this particular book has hinted on for her reasons to decline a leadership role. I find the aspects of Lorna that can be explored and defined through this experience to be something that can really make her shine.

[jmc247]

People are putting too much into his line. Daken doesnt view Lorna as a sister. He was diminishing hr bc he was trying to get in Aurora's pants. Calling her a sister does that by showing that he isnt sexually attracted to her

It’s not a major issue either way for me. Their snarky banter could work out well when interacting.

For me the big overriding issue is Leah is trying to update Lorna for a new generation of readers which is good. But, the current Generation Y Lorna revamp hasn’t captured her duality as yet.

[salarta]

People are putting too much into his line. Daken doesnt view Lorna as a sister. He was diminishing hr bc he was trying to get in Aurora's pants. Calling her a sister does that by showing that he isnt sexually attracted to her

There is a deeper implied problem with that line.

Back when there was discussion about Lorna dating someone on X-Factor, I pointed out how Lorna dating Rachel or Daken would screw her over with her peers. Suddenly, Lorna's dynamic with Jean goes from once close friends who served on the X-Men at its earliest days, to a mom and her daughter's girlfriend. It's a de-aging without actual de-aging.

Daken saying he views Lorna "like a sister" obviously isn't as severe, but it's in the same ball park. It's framing her as Daken's peer, in turn implying she's not Wolverine's.

If Daken had said "you're like a sister to me" to Jean, how would people feel about that? I have a feeling most people would see that as disrespectful given their history, particularly given Jean's history with Wolverine. And if that's true, then you have to question why it would be considered wrong for Daken to say it about Jean but it's somehow okay to say it about Lorna.

I can definitely see that point but i can also see how an indestructible mountain that depends on lorna but isn't dependant on lorna can help her grow in the exact areas this particular book has hinted on for her reasons to decline a leadership role. I find the aspects of Lorna that can be explored and defined through this experience to be something that can really make her shine.

If we ignore everything else that's ever existed, pretend X-Factor exists in a complete vacuum, then I could see why this would be a good thing. For a brand new character Leah Williams created from scratch who has no prior history and no other activities open to her outside the confines of what X-Factor is doing at any given time.

For Lorna as we really know her? With all else going on in the Marvel universe, and all the much better and far more appropriate ways she could be used instead? Not at all.

[Will Evans]

There is a deeper implied problem with that line.

Back when there was discussion about Lorna dating someone on X-Factor, I pointed out how Lorna dating Rachel or Daken would screw her over with her peers. Suddenly, Lorna's dynamic with Jean goes from once close friends who served on the X-Men at its earliest days, to a mom and her daughter's girlfriend. It's a de-aging without actual de-aging.

Daken saying he views Lorna "like a sister" obviously isn't as severe, but it's in the same ball park. It's framing her as Daken's peer, in turn implying she's not Wolverine's.

If Daken had said "you're like a sister to me" to Jean, how would people feel about that? I have a feeling most people would see that as disrespectful given their history, particularly given Jean's history with Wolverine. And if that's true, then you have to question why it would be considered wrong for Daken to say it about Jean but it's somehow okay to say it about Lorna.



If we ignore everything else that's ever existed, pretend X-Factor exists in a complete vacuum, then I could see why this would be a good thing. For a brand new character Leah Williams created from scratch who has no prior history and no other activities open to her outside the confines of what X-Factor is doing at any given time.

For Lorna as we really know her? With all else going on in the Marvel universe, and all the much better and far more appropriate ways she could be used instead? Not at all.

Daken is 60 years old. He’s older than Lorna. Technically he should call Lorna a kid.