The Complex

[DDD]

Hey if Tony Stark can still be a hero then anything is possible.

He's been an ass in my book since the mid 80s.

[Mike_Murdock]

This symbolizes a much bigger problem for the Inhumans. When I look at who they are and what they do, I have a hard time calling them heroes by the same standards as other Marvel characters. The Inhumans are a race of elitist, slave-owning, xenophobes. They've never tried to contribute to the world. They've never tried to help anyone unless they had to or unless it served their interests. The only reason the Inhumans left their cozy little enclave is because the events of Infinity made it too inconvenient for them. That's the only thing that motivated them. Inconvenience. How heroic is that?

Actually, they had moved slightly before that to float above New York, but I don't necessarily disagree. However, to me, that's part of what makes them so interesting. The Marvel Knights Inhumans book was a very weird book and wasn't superhero-y at all. In Silent War, you might be somewhat sympathetic, but they could easily be seen as the bad guys. I found them unlikable when they went into space and conquered other alien species. But I still found them inherently compelling.

In my honest opinion, no one would say that Marvel wants to replace the X-Men with the Inhumans if weren't for the creation of the Nuhumans. I wouldn't have a problem with Marvel wanting the Inhumans to be in the popular crowd if weren't for the Nuhumans, who are too similar to mutants and an easy way to create a character with no origin story as to how they got their powers without automatically giving Fox the movie-rights to this character.

I was concerned that would be a problem. And I have no idea what Hickman, Fraction, etc. were intended when they created the event. However, I can comment on how Soule has written it since then. To me, they play very different from mutants even with this similarity. For one thing, they aren't the stars. Their role has generally been as point of view characters to introduce the audience to the world. Second, there's just something inherently different about the Inhumans in that they are a nation-state. Mutants have always been about finding their place in society now that they have powers. The NuHumans in the Inhuman books have been about finding their place in Attilan society. One of the more interesting NuHumans is a guy who was a former police officer who is now chief of security for the city. That's not really a dynamic X-Books explore because there's no real book about founding a mutant society (although I probably would read that book). At most, they're joining a team, which is all well and good, but has a different dynamic from joining a country.

[Thor-Ul]

I was concerned that would be a problem. And I have no idea what Hickman, Fraction, etc. were intended when they created the event. However, I can comment on how Soule has written it since then. To me, they play very different from mutants even with this similarity. For one thing, they aren't the stars. Their role has generally been as point of view characters to introduce the audience to the world. Second, there's just something inherently different about the Inhumans in that they are a nation-state. Mutants have always been about finding their place in society now that they have powers. The NuHumans in the Inhuman books have been about finding their place in Attilan society. One of the more interesting NuHumans is a guy who was a former police officer who is now chief of security for the city. That's not really a dynamic X-Books explore because there's no real book about founding a mutant society (although I probably would read that book). At most, they're joining a team, which is all well and good, but has a different dynamic from joining a country.

They have them until House of M.

[Carabas]

Yeah, it's tough, founding a society with only about 200 people, about a third of whom are your enemies.

[Psi-Lord]

I don't necessarily disagree. However, to me, that's part of what makes them so interesting. The Marvel Knights Inhumans book was a very weird book and wasn't superhero-y at all. In Silent War, you might be somewhat sympathetic, but they could easily be seen as the bad guys. I found them unlikable when they went into space and conquered other alien species. But I still found them inherently compelling.

I was concerned that would be a problem. And I have no idea what Hickman, Fraction, etc. were intended when they created the event. However, I can comment on how Soule has written it since then. To me, they play very different from mutants even with this similarity. For one thing, they aren't the stars. Their role has generally been as point of view characters to introduce the audience to the world. Second, there's just something inherently different about the Inhumans in that they are a nation-state. Mutants have always been about finding their place in society now that they have powers. The NuHumans in the Inhuman books have been about finding their place in Attilan society. One of the more interesting NuHumans is a guy who was a former police officer who is now chief of security for the city. That's not really a dynamic X-Books explore because there's no real book about founding a mutant society (although I probably would read that book). At most, they're joining a team, which is all well and good, but has a different dynamic from joining a country.

You're absolutely right. The things you described in the first paragraph are things that make the (true) Inhumans unique in the Marvel Universe, while the things you described in the second paragraph differentiate the NuHumans from mutants.

However, I continue to believe that the replacement theory is still valid. Here is why:

1. The Attilan Inhumans show little to no care towards the effects of the Terrigen Mist in mutants. Until now, they only allowed Beast, a mutant, to research for a cure in their city, and they think that's enough. Even though mutants, the victims of the, albeit unintentional, consequences of their king's act, are helping the Inhumans to establish themselves in human society, I haven't heard about Inhuman scientists working alongside him, although I may be wrong. That creates a terrible first impression on X-Fans.
2. The two Inhuman books are dealing very tangentially with the effects of the T-Mists on mutants, only reaping the benefits of it, namely the creation of Nuhumans, and having stories that don't deal with the T-Mists at all. All the X-Books, however, have stories that deal directly (UXM, EXM) or indirectly (ANADXM) with the negative effects of the Mists, leaving little to no room to stories that don't deal with it. That only adds fuel to the fire.
3. The X-Men have very recently dealt with an extinction threat, and this threat was unintentionally caused by the Inhumans who, as they themselves showed, couldn't care less about it.
4. The resolution of the previous extinction threat was, some people say, "stolen" from the X-Men and given to the Avengers, in an event that treated the Avengers as heroes and the X-Men as villains, which, to some people, shows that Marvel is willing to treat favourably the IP's that they have the movie rights to, and unfavourably the ones that they don't.
5. The character origin MCU loophole that I mentioned in my earlier post could mean that Marvel now has the possibility to no longer create mutant characters in favour of Nuhuman characters. And I remember that a writer let it slip that movie rights were the reason that he couldn't create original characters to Spider-Gwen, just alternate versions of already existing characters. And Marvel had a much better relationship with the Spider movie franchise than the X-Movie franchise even before the deal.
6. The Fantastic Four, another franchise that Marvel doesn't have the movie rights to, has already left the Marvel Universe. The X-Men, since then, have had their presence and influence in the Marvel Universe greatly diminished, with some people saying that it is the fact that the they have a greater number of fans than the FF the only thing that it's stopping them form following the same path.

That, I believe, shows that the replacement theory is reasonable. We could be wrong, we could be right, but there is no reason to say that this theory is nonsensical (I'm not saying you or anyone who doesn't believe the theory said that, of course, but there are some people who feel this way).

As a side-note: In my honest opinion, I believe that putting Nuhumans, humans that have a clear notion of what being a hero is (as Ms. Marvel is clearly showing), alongside Inhumans, who are not heroes by definition, is still not working, for me personally. Having this kind of tension would mean that one side should change its ways, but if one of them does it that would make them uninteresting or take away their uniqueness. The writers have written themselves in a corner, again, in my opinion. But that's just me (Sorry for repeating that, again ).

Yeah, it's tough, founding a society with only about 200 people, about a third of whom are your enemies.

I believe you're talking about Utopia, right? If so, in my honest opinion, it was still a mutant society, as much as New Attilan is an Inhuman society.

[Mike_Murdock]

One little thing to point out, which isn't necessarily contradictory to everything, just one thing: Character origin doesn't appear to be the determining factor on who has the movie rights - otherwise Sabretooth would be appearing on Netflix as part of Iron Fist. Instead, it seems to be who they're associated with. So, if Ms. Marvel were a mutant, she still wouldn't be owned by Fox. All characters created for the Inhuman books are associated with the Inhumans (obviously). And it really doesn't seem likely that Fox would want the characters that are being created for the Inhuman books anyway.

Hell, is there a newer X-character than X-23 that Fox has shown interest in?

[Star_Jammer]

One little thing to point out, which isn't necessarily contradictory to everything, just one thing: Character origin doesn't appear to be the determining factor on who has the movie rights - otherwise Sabretooth would be appearing on Netflix as part of Iron Fist. Instead, it seems to be who they're associated with. So, if Ms. Marvel were a mutant, she still wouldn't be owned by Fox. All characters created for the Inhuman books are associated with the Inhumans (obviously). And it really doesn't seem likely that Fox would want the characters that are being created for the Inhuman books anyway.

Hell, is there a newer X-character than X-23 that Fox has shown interest in?

Darwin. Azazel, if you count X-23's animated debut. Maybe more?

[Psi-Lord]

One little thing to point out, which isn't necessarily contradictory to everything, just one thing: Character origin doesn't appear to be the determining factor on who has the movie rights - otherwise Sabretooth would be appearing on Netflix as part of Iron Fist. Instead, it seems to be who they're associated with. So, if Ms. Marvel were a mutant, she still wouldn't be owned by Fox. All characters created for the Inhuman books are associated with the Inhumans (obviously). And it really doesn't seem likely that Fox would want the characters that are being created for the Inhuman books anyway.

Hell, is there a newer X-character than X-23 that Fox has shown interest in?

If I'm not mistaken, there was a 2003 court dispute between Fox and Marvel and the result of it set the precedent that the movie rights of any mutant characters that Marvel creates are automatically owned by Fox, because, if I recall correctly, any mutant would be associated with the X-Men. Marvel could only have the movie rights to these characters if these characters did not belong, or did not belong only, in the X-Fandom. And even then they must apply some changes to these characters for them to be able to appear in a Marvel production (which is why Scarlet Witch & Quicksilver can't be called Scarlet Witch & Quicksilver in the MCU. Fox owns movie rights to mutant characters by default, and Marvel has the burden to work around these limitations). So, if Sabretooth were still a villain in Iron Fist's Rogue Gallery alongside being a villain to Wolverine, he could appear in the Iron Fist Netflix show. He should just not be called Sabretooth and not be a mutant in the show. Same with Mystique, if she were a regular Captain Marvel foe and an X-Villain at the same time. But they would still be owned by Fox by default.

And if Ms. Marvel were a mutant, but were associated with the Inhumans because, let's say, Attilan crashed in front of her house, her movie rights would be owned by Fox AND Marvel. But Fox would be the one that could keep her mutation in the movies.

[Mike_Murdock]

But that's nonsense. I can name at least one mutant Marvel doesn't own - Typhoid Mary. Agents of SHIELD referenced Eden Fesi as well.

The only court dispute I'm aware of is when Marvel wanted to make an X-Men TV show (specifically called "Mutant X"). Fox sued because the show (which used characters unique to the show, not to any new comics), was essentially an X-Men TV show - using the name mutant and specifically referring to X-Men (and even the X-Men movie) in promotional material. Legally, Marvel owned the rights to all TV shows, but Fox has to consent to any productions. Neither side actually fully won the argument, but that's a separate issue since it was successful in killing the TV show. The lawsuit was in 2001.

You can read the motion to dismiss Here. Unless you know of a different lawsuit, it actually had absolutely nothing to do with the comics.

[Confuzzled]

Darwin. Azazel, if you count X-23's animated debut. Maybe more?

Kavita Rao. Angel Salvadore and Negasonic Teenage Warhead debuted just a year before X-23's animated debut too. And the Cuckoos had a wallpaper cameo in The Last Stand, I believe.

I think the usage of 2004's "Gifted" storyline and Rao for The Last Stand was what made it really apparent that Fox would be able to pick up and use new characters and storylines as and when they were created for the comics.

[Psi-Lord]

But that's nonsense. I can name at least one mutant Marvel doesn't own - Typhoid Mary. Agents of SHIELD referenced Eden Fesi as well.

The only court dispute I'm aware of is when Marvel wanted to make an X-Men TV show (specifically called "Mutant X"). Fox sued because the show (which used characters unique to the show, not to any new comics), was essentially an X-Men TV show - using the name mutant and specifically referring to X-Men (and even the X-Men movie) in promotional material. Legally, Marvel owned the rights to all TV shows, but Fox has to consent to any productions. Neither side actually fully won the argument, but that's a separate issue since it was successful in killing the TV show. The lawsuit was in 2001.

You can read the motion to dismiss Here. Unless you know of a different lawsuit, it actually had absolutely nothing to do with the comics.

You're right, Matt Murdock. I didn't remember the details very well.

But why aren't mutants used in the television and Netflix shows made by Marvel? Why aren't Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch mutants in the Marvel Cinematic Universe? And how do you know about Typhoid Mary?

[donpricetag]

You're right, Matt Murdock. I didn't remember the details very well.

But why aren't mutants used in the television and Netflix shows made by Marvel? Why aren't Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch mutants in the Marvel Cinematic Universe? And how do you know about Typhoid Mary?

They don't because Ike Pealmutter won't allow it. Besides he Netflix series are "connected" to the MCU. They can't mix the two, but if Marvel wanted to, they could make their own standalone X-Men shows. The last two (Evolution and Wolverine and the X-Men) had nothing to do with Fox. One of the reasons it shocked everyone that Marvel is allowing Fox to use Legion and the Hellfire Club as shows. Though I doubt either show will feature core X-Men.

[Mike_Murdock]

^ Actually, if you look at that case I cited, they can't make live action X-Men shows.

You're right, Matt Murdock. I didn't remember the details very well.

But why aren't mutants used in the television and Netflix shows made by Marvel? Why aren't Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch mutants in the Marvel Cinematic Universe? And how do you know about Typhoid Mary?

Because Fox has the rights to Marvel and they have the rights to X-Men characters.

Technically I don't know about Typhoid Mary because, when she appeared in an Elektra movie, it was owned by Fox. That being said, a lot of people who seem to know what they're talking about have said that Fox can't combine IPs. They had the rights to make Daredevil movies and X-Men movies, but not cross the two. Even if that's wrong, it still leaves Eden Fesi (Manifold) who is a mutant, but is not an X-Men character, and was referenced on Agents of SHIELD. In the show, he's not a mutant, but is an Inhuman like the other Secret Warriors.

I'll go from the other side to show why whether or not they're mutants doesn't matter: Moira MacTaggert. You agree she's not a mutant, right? You also agree that Fox has her rights?

[Psi-Lord]

^ Actually, if you look at that case I cited, they can't make live action X-Men shows.



Because Fox has the rights to Marvel and they have the rights to X-Men characters.

Technically I don't know about Typhoid Mary because, when she appeared in an Elektra movie, it was owned by Fox. That being said, a lot of people who seem to know what they're talking about have said that Fox can't combine IPs. They had the rights to make Daredevil movies and X-Men movies, but not cross the two. Even if that's wrong, it still leaves Eden Fesi (Manifold) who is a mutant, but is not an X-Men character, and was referenced on Agents of SHIELD. In the show, he's not a mutant, but is an Inhuman like the other Secret Warriors.

I'll go from the other side to show why whether or not they're mutants doesn't matter: Moira MacTaggert. You agree she's not a mutant, right? You also agree that Fox has her rights?

I'm not sure at all, but I believe that she is owned by Fox because she is associated with the X-Men. Yes, their origin shouldn't matter, but it looks like it still does, somehow.

[xhx23x]

There's characters that are in murky water. I remember reading an article that the rights issue for some characters largely depend on where they appeared and their panel time in a franchise that makes them be directly linked to a certain Franchise.

Moira probably is not a good example cause she's totally tie to the X-verse. I think a better example would be Viper, who is a larger MCU foe, but with just enough ties to Wolverine and mutants to be able to be used in The Wolverine.