How much has the X-Men as a reflection of real life minorities changed overtime?

[Zelena]

Are you comparing KraKoa to the events leading to USA??

Exactly.

[Triniking1234]

Huh, what exactly are Flatscans anyway?

non X-gene humans

[Electricmastro]

Only because you've been stopped every time you tried to, Magneto. And I guess Magneto forgot that time he made slaves of the denizens of the Savage Land. Don't even get me started on the various timelines Apocalypse did enslave people.

Reminds me of the time Magneto made announcements of wanting to make slaves out of humans, as if wanting to be a slaveowner back in 1964. I wonder if it was this attitude, along with the religious propaganda and replacement propaganda, that helped fuel the fires of fear in the humans towards mutants back in the 60s.

To make it clear, this is not to justify atrocities done towards mutants, but to simply identify the responsibilities that should have been had in regards to fueling the fires of fear, because I’ve come to learn that even something as irrational as fear has a fuel source that could help cause fires which end up devastatingly hurting innocent people.

[Tycon]

Exactly.

that’s a deffffinite reach. there’s no slave labor or genocide of indigenous ppl. two landmarks of the creation of America

Only because you've been stopped every time you tried to, Magneto. And I guess Magneto forgot that time he made slaves of the denizens of the Savage Land. Don't even get me started on the various timelines Apocalypse did enslave people.

What do alternate timelines have to do with the 616?

[Zelena]

that’s a deffffinite reach. there’s no slave labor or genocide of indigenous ppl. two landmarks of the creation of America

Slave labor wasn't there at first and neither was the genocide. At the beginnigng there was only a hope of a Promise Land where everything is possible, with no limits.

[lemonpeace]

Slave labor wasn't there at first and neither was the genocide. At the beginnigng there was only a hope of a Promise Land where everything is possible, with no limits.

that's just patently false. in fact, european-led enslavement in the Americas actually PREDATE the american state. britain began instituting the cattle slave "trade" in 1562, which became not only a regular, but an essential part of their trade between themselves and the american colonies. hence the name triangular slave trade: britain/europe would capture Africans and send them to the Americas, where they are enslaved and exchanged for the goods produced from the slave labor, which are in turn sold and traded in europe (because like I said before, colonialism is based in the extraction of resources) who in turn use that profit to fund the guns and liquor they need to return to Africa and capture more slaves.

before that, europeans enslaved Native American people. most notably, Columbus was sending Native slaves to Spain as early as the 1490s, the same decade he arrived in america. hell, Columbus is notorious for his abuse of native people. I would like to note, 1495 and 1562 are 200+ years before America came to br in 1770whenever.

America was created as a way for the rich elite (referred to as "natural aristocrats" and "the minority" in the federalist papers and the constitution they spawned) to profit as much as possible with no limits. enslavement and genocide are the backbone of the american colony's explosive growth and the eventual foundation of the united states. without them, the american project would've failed

[Zelena]

that's just patently false. in fact, european-led enslavement in the Americas actually PREDATE the american state. britain began instituting the cattle slave "trade" in 1562, which became not only a regular, but an essential part of their trade between themselves and the american colonies. hence the name triangular slave trade: britain/europe would capture Africans and send them to the Americas, where they are enslaved and exchanged for the goods produced from the slave labor, which are in turn sold and traded in europe (because like I said before, colonialism is based in the extraction of resources) who in turn use that profit to fund the guns and liquor they need to return to Africa and capture more slaves.

before that, europeans enslaved Native American people. most notably, Columbus was sending Native slaves to Spain as early as the 1490s, the same decade he arrived in america. hell, Columbus is notorious for his abuse of native people. I would like to note, 1495 and 1562 are 200+ years before America came to br in 1770whenever.

America was created as a way for the rich elite (referred to as "natural aristocrats" and "the minority" in the federalist papers and the constitution they spawned) to profit as much as possible with no limits. enslavement and genocide are the backbone of the american colony's explosive growth and the eventual foundation of the united states. without them, the american project would've failed

It isn't about the reality, but the myth.
The myth is still alive well after the history has been forgotten or has been distorted.

[lemonpeace]

It isn't about the reality, but the myth.
The myth is still alive well after the history has been forgotten or has been distorted.

it is about reality, someone point out that slavery and genocide were landmarks of america's history. you said no , slavery and genocide didn't exist at america's inception and that it was founded on freedom for freedom sake. that wasn't a mythological statement, that was a false historical statement.

myth does not outlive history. a myth only exists so long as someone perpetuates the myth, history exists no matter what. mythological ideology didn't outlive the Greeks, or the Romans, or Timbuktu, or Egypt, or Nazi Germany, their history and historical records of them did. that's why we have institutions and technology today specifically for the purpose of recovering "lost" history, and they typical seem to find some ****.

[Zelena]

it is about reality, someone point out that slavery and genocide were landmarks of america's history. you said no , slavery and genocide didn't exist at america's inception and that it was founded on freedom for freedom sake. that wasn't a mythological statement, that was a false historical statement.

myth does not outlive history. a myth only exists so long as someone perpetuates the myth, history exists no matter what. mythological ideology didn't outlive the Greeks, or the Romans, or Timbuktu, or Egypt, or Nazi Germany, their history and historical records of them did. that's why we have institutions and technology today specifically for the purpose of recovering "lost" history, and they typical seem to find some ****.

I didn't say slavery and genocide weren't important in America's history, just people conveniently forgets what bothers them.
What remains? Just people in search of a better place to live and they found it, created cities, flourished…
Certainly, it's important in American's psyche. Just see all these old western movies… It's a myth, a dream that perpetuated: always begin again, all new…

[Electricmastro]

It's funny that the most obvious metaphor for Krakoa is always forgotten.
Wasn't there that picture of a statue of Xavier like Abraham Lincoln?
I mean, a empty place colonized by a bunch of mostly white people with super-powers…
(Right, there were Native American first there but they didn't matter much for the newcomers.)

They created a new country, taking the land, exploiting its ressources, making their laws.
Time has passed, new people have come but in the minds of the nostalgics, the country as it were, just for them, must feel like a lost paradise.
And maybe the idea that the same process could start again is still present…

Yep, actually, I recall that it’s quite common to such new societies, countries, empires, etc. throughout history come about because of such approaches when looking at the wider-scope of history. The empires that turned out to be longest-lasting partially due to exploiting or taking advantage of something or someone, even at their expense. If that can’t be truthfully applied to Krakoa in the Marvel universe, then I wonder if that could better apply to Krakoa if Krakoa existed in the “real world.”

[Nigel909]

it is about reality, someone point out that slavery and genocide were landmarks of america's history. you said no , slavery and genocide didn't exist at america's inception and that it was founded on freedom for freedom sake. that wasn't a mythological statement, that was a false historical statement.

myth does not outlive history. a myth only exists so long as someone perpetuates the myth, history exists no matter what. mythological ideology didn't outlive the Greeks, or the Romans, or Timbuktu, or Egypt, or Nazi Germany, their history and historical records of them did. that's why we have institutions and technology today specifically for the purpose of recovering "lost" history, and they typical seem to find some ****.

Your clearly very knowledgeable about these matters but I would question your assertation that history outlives the myth.
History is the realm of the academic , myth the realm of the people.
Just think of Arthur , what do people know , myth of history ? Biblical history ? The Vikings ? Queen Victoria ? Churchill ? I think , for the majority , the myth is more powerful than the history.

[BroHomo]

Exactly.

I'm still not seeing the connection with the founding of America...

I didn't say slavery and genocide weren't important in America's history, just people conveniently forgets what bothers them.
What remains? Just people in search of a better place to live and they found it, created cities, flourished…
Certainly, it's important in American's psyche. Just see all these old western movies… It's a myth, a dream that perpetuated: always begin again, all new…

Sooooo what about KraKoa?

Yep, actually, I recall that it’s quite common to such new societies, countries, empires, etc. throughout history come about because of such approaches when looking at the wider-scope of history. The empires that turned out to be longest-lasting partially due to exploiting or taking advantage of something or someone, even at their expense. If that can’t be truthfully applied to Krakoa in the Marvel universe, then I wonder if that could better apply to Krakoa if Krakoa existed in the “real world.”

who are they exploiting/taking advantage of?

[Zelena]

I'm still not seeing the connection with the founding of America...

In both cases, they started from nil, didn't bother with what already existed, they were modeling their world according their wishes.
It's a demiurge dream.

[Tycon]

Slave labor wasn't there at first and neither was the genocide. At the beginnigng there was only a hope of a Promise Land where everything is possible, with no limits.

Rewriting history, are we?

Bringing sick ppl to interact with a community of ppl whose immune systems know nothing about foreign diseases counts as genocide

[lemonpeace]

Your clearly very knowledgeable about these matters but I would question your assertation that history outlives the myth.
History is the realm of the academic , myth the realm of the people.
Just think of Arthur , what do people know , myth of history ? Biblical history ? The Vikings ? Queen Victoria ? Churchill ? I think , for the majority , the myth is more powerful than the history.

first and foremost, Thank You! i literally go to school for these kinds of topics, so i would hope I'm at least a little knowledgable about these matters LOL. history, mythology, anthropology, and Africana studies are my jam.

you raise a good point, maybe i got a little too ahead of myself, so let me approach it a different way. Myth and History serve two different functions but they work in tandem within the realm of anthropology, so it would be more accurate to say history supersedes myth and mythology when we are doing a cultural analysis (i can't think of a better term right now but i think that fits). yes, people gravitate more toward myth (like any story or lie) but, often times, it's not because they see it as myth, they just have a misunderstanding of history. people hold up the bible as historical fact, people think Vikings actually looked like they do in cartoons, people misinterpret the story of Arthur and the legacy of Churchhill. if you put the myth of the Vikings, next to a historical account of what they were, people may be more engaged in the myth but no one would point to it as being more important because when put side by side and brought into the realm of reality, I would say a myth is no longer a myth, it's a lie. myth stories do endure, sure some even outlive the era of the nation which they came, but it's not the mythology that we study, it's the history. the history informs us why they have their myths, because even myths have a history, and just looking at the examples you gave, there is a historical reason why certain stories and myths are more widely available than others. for example, mamiwota is one of the most widely known myths out of West Africa, however, it has no tangible mythological significance because it's a foreign creation made by lumping together various water myths from the area (mami wota = mommy water, it's just broken english). However it does have a greater historical significance because of the history surrounding it and what it says about the extent of colonization in Africa. myth is cultural, their function is to instill the cultural values in a given culture, and so, it's prevalence is subjective in relation to the observing culture. history, however, is uniformly significant because it's based in objectivity, these things happen, those things didn't. that's why we devote so much more time to history in school and not as much to learning about mythology.

i hope people understand what i mean when I say we study history not myth. I'm not saying that literally no one studies mythology, I am one of those people that likes to study myths, i mean that history is typically what we look to more because beyond the purposed virtues a myth promotes, it doesn't speak to the full reality of how a people operate. We can discuss this more in a PM if you like, in order to not pull the whole thread off track