Controversial Superman Opinions

[manwhohaseverything]

In today's climate, isn't Superman a typical all rounder? He's proficient at everything just not necessarily the top tier. When written well, this would never equate to jobbing. He does everything but he's no longer the best at everything when each ability is looked at in its singularity. In a room of super heroes, if he was the best at everything, what would be the point of having these other heroes when Superman can simply do it all by himself? I also feel like just because he's not driven to be the best at everything that it somehow means he no longer has the never say die spirit. Clark does push himself to the very last when the occasion calls for it, the issue is that not not every occasion calls for it.

Well, mate! It comes of as jobbing and treated as jobbing.




Clark's reaction to losing further cements that.it never is written well. Combined with the sun and holding back nonsense, it's bad. As said, being the best ain't the point.how his attitude towards loses and competition is being written is the problem. You are wrong. When he was the best. he doesn't need the drive. He only needs to improve himself,further.now,he isn't that. He needs the drive. That is the difference between a jobber and an underdog. He doesn't push himself.He gets sun dipped out most of the time. Even in that,snyder jl issue where he pushed himself to fly and beat that monitor dude. He basically absorbed many suns. It takes away everything from the character.

[DochaDocha]

Who's ever wished Superman was written out of the JLA just so that they didn't have to nerf him for all the other heroes' sakes? I've probably felt that way from time to time, but I still think the idea of making Superman something other than a core member, founding parent of the JL as stupid, so I try to be careful what I wish for. Try, anyway...

EDIT: Superman gets his time in the sun (no pun intended) but he probably is DC's ultimate jobber, a guy written into stories just for the sake of losing and making the other character look tougher or better. That fight on Supergirl definitely fits the description of "jobber."

[Kuwagaton]

Although it's conventionally the basis for his powers, I think his relationship with the sun is overrated here. In nearly a thousand stories from the last twenty five years they've used going to the sun for a boost of energy maybe six times

Why? Because he is superman and has a sense of pride . It's more than enough reasons for me. No, that isn't petty. If it were most athletes would be.

A lot of people see the Doomsday fight as a stubborn punch fest but the story made it clear that he'd tried other options and took too much of a beating in the process to put off the direct route while he still could. My favorite example though ends up being his fight with Pocket universe Quex where he goes from losing the fistfight to getting the gold kryptonite. That's a Superman move, there's already a Goku who will blow it with a chance on pride.

Athletes have pride because their natural aptitude is generally nothing without painstaking work to hone themselves. Even then when you have a legitimate great like Ali who pridefully billed himself as such... it's not like there was the hubris to beat Foreman in power. Being a great competitor is usually more about handling disadvantages than using your advantage. There pretty much isn't an equivalent activity for Superman unless you collect all of the experience with different powers as some of us do.

Superman goes from never racing on foot to breaking even with Barry or Wally. Supergirl was already able to replicate his best feats before the bronze age. Superman is the difference between a character who works hard and a character who's a product of hard work.

If i enter an archery contest and swimming contest. And Win swimming contest, lose archery. Is It ok for me to not feel bad for winning archery and don't do anything about improving myself in that?my answer is no.
If i do, that means either of two thing.
One) i am not passionate about archery. In that case i should never enter again.
two) i have no pride nor do i want to improve . Especially, if i had the potential and time.

That's my point though. People who over invest in defeat think of things like not competing again. I brought this up in another thread but again I have to say Superman Adventures #11 and 12 had such a great story on Superman's resolve not to quit.

If size mattered in the DCU, Mongul would have killed Superman long ago.

He's been a punching bag for a while now haha.

In today's climate, isn't Superman a typical all rounder? He's proficient at everything just not necessarily the top tier. When written well, this would never equate to jobbing. He does everything but he's no longer the best at everything when each ability is looked at in its singularity. In a room of super heroes, if he was the best at everything, what would be the point of having these other heroes when Superman can simply do it all by himself? I also feel like just because he's not driven to be the best at everything that it somehow means he no longer has the never say die spirit. Clark does push himself to the very last when the occasion calls for it, the issue is that not not every occasion calls for it.

The thing is, I never see someone who isn't already a fan say that he should be more powerful. That doesn't seem to make him more inviting.

[Ascended]

Who's ever wished Superman was written out of the JLA just so that they didn't have to nerf him for all the other heroes' sakes? I've probably felt that way from time to time, but I still think the idea of making Superman something other than a core member, founding parent of the JL as stupid, so I try to be careful what I wish for. Try, anyway...

It's not just you. I'd be fine if Clark's involvement with the League was more "only shows up in the nick of time to turn the tide" and less "showcases in every issue where everyone else has to matter too." I don't need Clark coming to the League's rescue, but I'd rather Clark be reserved for when it's truly a job for Superman, yknow?

Same with Batman, actually. If most of his appearances were nothing more than his face on a computer screen, giving the League some intel and ideas, and he only showed up when the team really needed his particular skillset (deducing who is stealing planets, or stealing the dues ex machina or something) I'd be a much happier League fan.

Or at least, that's how I feel on some days.

[Sacred Knight]

The entire Trinity might do well to not be a part of the JL at the same time in most scenarios. They help establish it with the rest of the big 7 early on, but its not necessarily always fostered by them long term. Just say as the premiere heroes they're so often off on their own solo acts they just don't have as much time to contribute and turn things over to others. They show up on occasion but are more figureheads as founders.

But at the same time while I think it could benefit characters and stories, I know this idea doesn't lead to good sales. By and large most want the big guns in the the League always. Doing otherwise rarely ever works.

[Agent Z]

I wouldn't call Superman DC's biggest jobber given he wins far more than he loses. That title would go to either Wonder Woman, Captain Atom or Martian Manhunter.

[DochaDocha]

I wouldn't call Superman DC's biggest jobber given he wins far more than he loses. That title would go to either Wonder Woman, Captain Atom or Martian Manhunter.

I think by proportion, a big chunk of Martian Manhunter's appearances are just to get whacked so someone else could save the day. In that sense, he's worse than Superman, but as far as higher-profile stuff goes I think Superman is still the go-to guy for being knocked down a few pegs. Whenever Superman is mind-controlled in someone else's book or TV show, you know he's there to be beaten.

[manwhohaseverything]

Although it's conventionally the basis for his powers, I think his relationship with the sun is overrated here. In nearly a thousand stories from the last twenty five years they've used going to the sun for a boost of energy maybe six times

A lot of people see the Doomsday fight as a stubborn punch fest but the story made it clear that he'd tried other options and took too much of a beating in the process to put off the direct route while he still could. My favorite example though ends up being his fight with Pocket universe Quex where he goes from losing the fistfight to getting the gold kryptonite. That's a Superman move, there's already a Goku who will blow it with a chance on pride.

Athletes have pride because their natural aptitude is generally nothing without painstaking work to hone themselves. Even then when you have a legitimate great like Ali who pridefully billed himself as such... it's not like there was the hubris to beat Foreman in power. Being a great competitor is usually more about handling disadvantages than using your advantage. There pretty much isn't an equivalent activity for Superman unless you collect all of the experience with different powers as some of us do.

Superman goes from never racing on foot to breaking even with Barry or Wally. Supergirl was already able to replicate his best feats before the bronze age. Superman is the difference between a character who works hard and a character who's a product of hard work.

That's my point though. People who over invest in defeat think of things like not competing again. I brought this up in another thread but again I have to say Superman Adventures #11 and 12 had such a great story on Superman's resolve not to quit.

No, i am not. Superman is treated nothing without the sun. If he doesn't get it he loses. That just feels hollow.

A punching fest with a brute isn't a competition nor a fight. It's basically ruffianism and mindles brawling . I would have treated it as test of endurance,if it weren't for the setting and the opponent. It's bad specifically for that reason. Pulling a goku.that too with a villain , isn't what i am talking about. Superman isn't bound by bushido. My influences for superman are greek heroes, gladiators and olympian athletes. Kal el needs to seriously channel hercules and herculean tasks should be what he is about. This is'nt about his behaviour with the villains. Its about his general attitude towards competition and fights.

The same is true for superman.As said, i firmly believe clark innate aptitude wouldn't allow him to beat lois in writing,lex or batman in chess, he now cannot beat the flashes in race, he cannot out maneuver or technique diana,outlast atlas...etc so on and so forth. I am picking just top dogs, here. Superman currently isn't treated the best in any field.he billed the most powerful, that too maybe. It is, clark has tons. He isn't the strongest, nor fastest, nor smartest..etc. He isn't the overdog. Even if he were, He can have tons of opponents who put him at a disadvantage.the dcu is a big place. If nothing else as i said, can superman enter a body building contest and win? I think he will lose. Big time.

now that would be goku, a character that works hard.lee and guy i mentioned earlier are products of hard work. Superman is neither. His entire shtick is when he is under a certain type of star he becomes god. He doesn't need to do anything for that. So, how can he be the difference?

Defeat's are good motivation.being ok with losing isn't ok, though . Being not ok, will help you strive to do better. Besides, what i said was if i loose and if i am not bothered by the lose. Then i either have no passion for said thing Or i don't have any pride and am too comfortable with my current level. The former means, doing the thing will be a chore for me, not heart felt. So i should quit. The latter means,i am wasting my potential in said thing and being lazy. I don't need to quit.i need to kick myself for being that.I need an attitude change. I need to be driven.Superman belongs in the second category. He has limitless potential and he has passion for these things. Yet, he is ok with taking L from people like lex, bruce, barry..etc. Simply because he has no pride or honour .

My points are :
1)he needs pride in competitions.those do happen.it is'nt just fights with villains all the time.
2)there are tons of herculean tasks like building a flying city, challenges like surviving inside a black hole and opponents like Mr terrific , barry.. Etc. Superman doesn't challenge himself,nearly as much as i would like him to.
3)clark needs penalties for evertime he loses. "if i lose a race to barry, i would take 10000 laps across the world"

[DrNewGod]

The idea of Superman not having a good grasp on fighting to me sounds lazy. I mean it's not his thing (do they even pretend Batman likes it?) but he does it so often with such high stakes that he should know what he's doing above the average person. I can't imagine him being just average (like less than an A level college student) with subjects like physics or psychology by the same token. To me the closest he gets to being a regular guy with powers is at least being as invested as a cop.

My head cannon has always been that Superman's not as skilled as he could be, but that people can't tell the difference. He hasn't spent the time developing combat techniques that most martial artists do, in favor of perfecting skills that help people. That said, he's so bloody fast, and a genius to boot, that he's able to analyze and respond quickly enough that it looks pretty skilled. Against a kryptonian that is highly trained, he should get mopped unless he can outsmart them (which, usually, he can because, again, he's a genius, even among kryptonians).

[Ascended]

I think that, while Clark does have combat training and is far from a unskilled brawler, his main focus and what he's best at is creative application of powers. He knows how to use what he's got to full effect, and for him it's as easy as blinking. So Clark's fighting style isn't just physical blows, it's doing stuff like micro-burst heat vision to blind his foe or disarm them, micro-bursts of super-breathe to knock someone off balance, using his flight to best advantage (that power changes all the physics for how Clark fights), using x-ray and telescopic vision to predict attacks, etc.

[Johnny Thunders!]

Of course Superman can fight! It would take him, I don't know, 1/2 an hour to learn every combat technique in Earth's history? I just don't get how people see Superman. Everything a human being can do, Superman can do at an incalculable level of Superhuman skill. Draw, paint, write, swim, cook, etc... And if you think about how his brain would work, how it would process information, coupled with how he can perceive time and dimensions, I bet he knows Capoeira.

[Agent Z]

Of course Superman can fight! It would take him, I don't know, 1/2 an hour to learn every combat technique in Earth's history? I just don't get how people see Superman. Everything a human being can do, Superman can do at an incalculable level of Superhuman skill. Draw, paint, write, swim, cook, etc... And if you think about how his brain would work, how it would process information, coupled with how he can perceive time and dimensions, I bet he knows Capoeira.

I think you have a very idealized view of Superman that has never matched any version of the character aside from the Silver Age.

[Agent Z]

I think by proportion, a big chunk of Martian Manhunter's appearances are just to get whacked so someone else could save the day. In that sense, he's worse than Superman, but as far as higher-profile stuff goes I think Superman is still the go-to guy for being knocked down a few pegs. Whenever Superman is mind-controlled in someone else's book or TV show, you know he's there to be beaten.

The same can be said of any character who is mind controlled. And for every instance of him getting beat up there are for more of him triumphing.

[manwhohaseverything]

I think you have a very idealized view of Superman that has never matched any version of the character aside from the Silver Age.

He is right. It isn't idealised. It is the bare minimum . He is supposed to be post human. Silverage guy is a superman. Unlike postcrisis or any other versions, silverage guy had the creator himself working on him. So he is more superman. He can't be swept under the rug. What's the point of everyman superman, that too every damn time? I hate the notion that superman is just a dude with powers. The powers are him. Superman is his being. A superman who calls himself kal el would be refreshing.

The same can be said of any character who is mind controlled. And for every instance of him getting beat up there are for more of him triumphing.

Okay, how many times has it happened to harley quinn, bruce wayne, wonder woman lately, barry allen... Etc?

[Robanker]

My points are :
1)he needs pride in competitions.those do happen.it is'nt just fights with villains all the time.

He has pride in his wins, just not fighting his friends. He doesn't get to fight Batman because they think it'd be fun, usually they're pit against each other or it's a misunderstanding. Anyone who likes being turned against a friend isn't really a friend. He shows pride in wins when appropriate.

2)there are tons of herculean tasks like building a flying city, challenges like surviving inside a black hole and opponents like Mr terrific , barry.. Etc. Superman doesn't challenge himself,nearly as much as i would like him to.

Like the multi-sun dip cosmic Superman punch in Justice League? I mean it's cool, but if it happens all the time, it starts to mean less and less. He knocked Mongul around a state in Naomi. He was holding up buildings and putting out fires during a conversation in Man of Steel. He stopped the Joker in Gotham during a conversation with Perry without the latter noticing recently as well (Man of Steel or Action, don't remember which). He has feats of ability (not just strength) all the time.

3)clark needs penalties for evertime he loses. "if i lose a race to barry, i would take 10000 laps across the world"

He's not training for the cosmic olympics. This is a weird take, almost like punishing a child for daring to get a B on a subject. Moreover, why should he beat himself up over losing to The Flash, of all people. That's ridiculous. He should celebrate winning because losing a footrace to the Flash (ANY of them save MAYBE Jay) is a forgone conclusion. They mainline the Speed Force (and I know you don't like it, but it exists so let's not talk about that). It's like saying Batman should punish himself for losing an arm wrestling competition to the Silver Age Superman. Come on, dude. It's The Flash. The Fastest Man Alive, even if Barry isn't Wally, Clark shouldn't be able to touch him outside flukes. If Superman was able to fairly smoke The Flash at the one thing he does, what's even the point of having a Scarlet Speedster?

A joke at his own expense like "maybe I should lay off the rhubarb pie" after losing could be fun, or maybe even that he's lost a step since having to be Clark, Superman and a father. I'd understand that. But a Superman who loves fighting regardless of circumstance, beats himself up over any loss and overreacts to reprimanding himself for said losses just turns him into a generic shounen manga protagonist, which Superman has never been. At that point you may as well have Zod become the rival who is always better than him that he still beats every six volumes, Lex be the endgame big bad and Lois the woman he loves who loves him back but the plot holds as a carrot for him to get in the last volume. Bonus points for naval gazing speeches about fighting to protect one's friends and how the power of friendship will overcome all odds.


I admit Snyder likes to end his stories with that last bit too often for my taste.

DC's got a lot of problems with Superman as an IP and the current editorial regime clearly does not get the guy, but I really don't think the manga protagonist approach is the correct one to make Superman work out. First and foremost, he needs to stop deferring to everyone else (especially Batman) and just be willing to do his own thing, even if he does so humbly. Leaving the Justice League would probably help him a lot in that regard, as some have suggested, switching himself to reserve.

During the JLI/America days when he didn't want to join the team, the moments he appeared you absolutely felt like there was this level above that team and that Batman/J'onn were commuting to the B-Tier to keep an eye on the kids, but Superman was just too busy doing other stuff. He felt special. And I'm not saying this via nostalgia glasses, I reread the entire run on the DC Universe app over December so it's pretty fresh in my mind. There was a clear, concentrated focus on the dude post-Crisis (like the execution or not, they definitely were trying to make him feel as important as he is). During Rebirth's launch, he started guest staring in some spots and we were tricked into thinking they were renewing focus on him since the launch generated a lot of interest. DC kind of did that again with the Bendis relaunch, but the big BENDIS IS COMING ads were really more about "Bendis is at DC, start your clocks for when he takes Batman" as opposed to "get ready for SUPERMAN, boys and gals" despite Clark's presence on the ad.