Dick growing up...MISTAKE????

[Jon Clark]

In fact, if Dick never became Nightwing, would Crisis have ended differently? Barry died and Wally took over his mantle. Would they have had Wally do that if Dick hadn't already graduated from his sidekick mantle?

Wally wasn't originally supposed to inherit the mantle. The "Flash" was at some point planned to be a new non-speedster character after Crisis. The idea to hand the title over to Barry's former sidekick was made late in the planning, I think. So, I can easily see the decision changing if Dick hadn't already shown that readers would accept a sidekick moving up.

In fact if the Titans hadn't been DC's top seller I wonder if Crisis would have either regressed or eliminated the Titans generation.

[king81992]

The only mistakes are certain members of the editorial/ writers having an agenda against Dick(and legacy character in general).

[Arnoldoaad]

Its not a mistake, its perfectly natural
now, if it keeps growing for over 4 hours then you should see a doctor

[Lee]

This thread is covering the same ground as the Characters Who Outlived Their Point thread, so there may be some overlap, repetition and redundancy. Kind of ironic when you think about it.

In fact, if Dick never became Nightwing, would Crisis have ended differently? Barry died and Wally took over his mantle. Would they have had Wally do that if Dick hadn't already graduated from his sidekick mantle?

This touches on one of the key issues. Robin being aged up had the knock-on effect of ageing up the other Teen Titans.

In the long-term, the idea of Nightwing being a Teen Titans character and Robin being a Batman character fell apart, and Nightwing was folded into the growing Batman line. In that respect, Nightwing outlived his purpose. Fortunately, both Robin and Nightwing were popular enough to maintain their own series (Robin got his first). Despite Tim Drake's long-running Robin series, he got very little use in other media. The Dick Grayson Robin character and story were easier to adapt. Similarly, in Teen Titans adaptations, Robin is the gateway character, not Nightwing.

The adult Kid Flash became relevant again when they killed off Flash, and had him replace him.

DC struggled with the adult versions of Wonder Girl, Speedy and Aqualad. Now that Barry Allen (the most adaptation friendly Flash) is back, they're struggling with Wally West.

Tim Drake is now in the same boat. Possibly Superboy and Impulse too.

These are all characters created for a specific function, and they were either aged out of that function or had other characters take over that function.

The bigger Dick got, the more i liked it.

Fnar fnar.

[Jon Clark]

So there are really two different issues here. One is the issue of DC ageing up Dick Grayson that happened in 1969. And the other issue is Dick becoming Nightwing in 1984. Both of these bug me. Dick getting a year older in a year of publishing time bugs me because it breaks the laws of DC time up to that point--in thirty years, Dick had barely aged at all and changes happened gradually, then almost overnight he's ready to go to college. Dick not being Robin bugs me, because there's no reason for it other than a financial problem--it was already established on Earth-Two that Dick could be Robin when he was in his thirties and forties. And I don't like code-names and costumes being swapped between characters. I think a character deserves to own his super-hero identity for life.

There are two very different kinds of comics (and stories) that I enjoy. One is where there's a perpetual status quo and nothing much ever changes and the other is a real time world where everything happens as it does in real life. Comic book super-hero comics usually fail to do either and we're in a world where they try to have a status quo with changes--so characters age but they don't age in any way that makes sense and eventually it gets so screwed up that the publisher has to try and fix things and establish a new status quo with new changes.

When it comes to Batman and Robin, I would much rather have a perpetual status quo. But if there has to be change, then I'd prefer the characters to grow and change in real time.

I could be misremembering but wasn't the 1940's Robin written younger like closer to 13 (as an average) where as by the early 60's he was written closer to say 16-17 (as an average)so that the idea that he was a senior ready to hit college wasn't as much of a shift. Dick had more of a "Girls have cooties" relationship to the first Batgirl than he did when Barbara Gordon debuted (and this was when she was still "too old" for him to date). It was the same way as Clark in the Superboy stories had gone from being a pre-teen in the 1940's tales to being at least mid-teens by the 1960's. They weren't aging in real-time but rather sliding up in age over the course of a decade or so from kids to teens while at the same time Batman wasn't seeming to get any older because those few years difference in age wouldn't be as obvious for someone in the late 20's-early30's.

And the hang-up seems to be just that even now, An adult character can more easily hide a year's growth than a teen character. No one really notices if Superman debuts at age 22 or 25 because it really isn't important, but knowing if Robin was 10 or 14 when he debuts is more noticeable. And having Batman acknowledge he has been a hero for "several" years doesn't age him the same way it does Robin. On the other hand aging in real time does make Batman's age more apparent when I can read that Robin is going from High-school through college alongside him. And with decompressed stories where it takes 6 months to cover one story-arc Batman ages one year on 4 cases?

[godisawesome]

I fundamentally disagree that legacy characters, progression, and “graduation” hurt a brand.

Especially for the Batfamily.

If anything, the progression of Dick into Nightwing is one of the things that allowed the Bat brand to grow even more, as did the increase in Robins and Batgirls.

And hell, the Batbooks saw another expansion and renaissance when they actually even moved Dick into Batman... and that didn’t get hurt at all even when Bruce came back.

The real question is: can DC juggle multiple dynamic properties under a single character!s banner successfully enough to actually exploit that growth in time to stem the continual bleeding of readers as comics become even more and more niche as an industry?

When DC properties get diluted, that’s more the sign of a lack of good writers and unique artists than a problem of “redundant” characters. Didio’s problem with DC and the marketplace shrinking isn’t that, say, Dick, Jason, Tim, and Damian hurt each other.

It’s more that he can’t afford to lose great writers as often a story he inevitably does. Some of that can’t be helped: Bryan Q. Miller and others can succeed and make more money in larger markets. But he also can’t be a guy who sometimes alienates people like Mark Waid, Peter David, Chuck Dixon, George Perez, J. H. Williams III, and others while shoving books towards Scott Lobdell all the time.

You get a great stable of writers, and you can get something like the Bat Books around RIP and Inc., with multiple Batmen, Robins, Batgirls, and even books about side characters and villains, and make a tidy profit.

You misalign writers or throw out bad editorial edicts, and you get the New 52, cutting down on “redundancy” isn’t going to guarantee long term success.

[Lee Stone]

This thread is covering the same ground as the Characters Who Outlived Their Point thread, so there may be some overlap, repetition and redundancy. Kind of ironic when you think about it.



This touches on one of the key issues. Robin being aged up had the knock-on effect of ageing up the other Teen Titans.

In the long-term, the idea of Nightwing being a Teen Titans character and Robin being a Batman character fell apart, and Nightwing was folded into the growing Batman line. In that respect, Nightwing outlived his purpose. Fortunately, both Robin and Nightwing were popular enough to maintain their own series (Robin got his first). Despite Tim Drake's long-running Robin series, he got very little use in other media. The Dick Grayson Robin character and story were easier to adapt. Similarly, in Teen Titans adaptations, Robin is the gateway character, not Nightwing.

The adult Kid Flash became relevant again when they killed off Flash, and had him replace him.

DC struggled with the adult versions of Wonder Girl, Speedy and Aqualad. Now that Barry Allen (the most adaptation friendly Flash) is back, they're struggling with Wally West.

Tim Drake is now in the same boat. Possibly Superboy and Impulse too.

These are all characters created for a specific function, and they were either aged out of that function or had other characters take over that function.

Interestingly, Barry adopted a lot of Wally's personality, also.
Probably because writers of Barry grew up watching Wally as Flash in the DCAU Justice League cartoons.

[The Darknight Detective]

I personally think it was beneficial for the franchise and characters, and DC as a whole, that Dick "grew up."

I'm not sure if it would've been a good thing had he stayed a Boy Wonder forever, same for his generation as a whole.

Of course, Dick grew up years before Nightwing:

[Frontier]

This touches on one of the key issues. Robin being aged up had the knock-on effect of ageing up the other Teen Titans.

In the long-term, the idea of Nightwing being a Teen Titans character and Robin being a Batman character fell apart, and Nightwing was folded into the growing Batman line. In that respect, Nightwing outlived his purpose. Fortunately, both Robin and Nightwing were popular enough to maintain their own series (Robin got his first). Despite Tim Drake's long-running Robin series, he got very little use in other media. The Dick Grayson Robin character and story were easier to adapt. Similarly, in Teen Titans adaptations, Robin is the gateway character, not Nightwing.

The adult Kid Flash became relevant again when they killed off Flash, and had him replace him.

DC struggled with the adult versions of Wonder Girl, Speedy and Aqualad. Now that Barry Allen (the most adaptation friendly Flash) is back, they're struggling with Wally West.

Tim Drake is now in the same boat. Possibly Superboy and Impulse too.

These are all characters created for a specific function, and they were either aged out of that function or had other characters take over that function.

I don't think anyone would really want Donna, Roy, or Garth to go back to being teenagers either.

Of course, Dick grew up years before Nightwing:

That costume is kind of bad.

[The Darknight Detective]

I don't think anyone would really want Donna, Roy, or Garth to go back to being teenagers either.

That costume is kind of bad.

The Nightwing costume isn't that much better. In fact, it might be worse (though more creative).

[Lee Stone]

Of course, Dick grew up years before Nightwing:

That costume is kind of bad.

The right artist could sell it.
Dan Brereton, for example...

[Frontier]

I think it's more that he's famous for both identities, but Robin has been a household name since the 1960s. So I think it skews more towards that. A lot of adaptations do feature the transition, but they are using the recognition or Robin to boost Nightwing. As in, he used to be the most famous sidekick to one of the biggest superheroes ever, and now he's his own man. The connection to Robin is what makes Nightwing a big deal.

Establishing himself away from Bruce hasn't worked 100% though. He only became Nightwing towards the end of Perez's tenure on NTT so most of the best arcs still feature him as Robin. And then when the Titans franchise ran out of gas, he got pulled back to the Bat-office which arguably has done some damage to him along with the success. Doing Batman-lite stuff in Bludhaven is kind of beneath the character, but he's still stuck doing it, and gets pulled into the Bat-family crossovers as just another face in the crowd.

Adult and independent hero who migrates to Batman and the Titans' orbits sounds better then being in an eternally youthful sidekick role.

The Nightwing costume isn't that much better. In fact, it might be worse (though more creative).

Which Nightwing costume we talking about here? I'll maybe give you the Discowing suit, and even then I think that suit pops in a way this absolutely doesn't.

[The Darknight Detective]

Which Nightwing costume we talking about here? I'll maybe give you the Discowing suit, and even then I think that suit pops in a way this absolutely doesn't.

Definitely the Discowing outfit, which was out of date at the time of its introduction. Back in the '70s? Anything was acceptable then.

[Jim Kelly]

I don't think anyone would really want Donna, Roy, or Garth to go back to being teenagers either.

I guess I don't count.

[Frontier]

I guess I don't count.

Apologies Jim...