Dick Grayson: Robin/Batman/Nightwing/Agent 37 Appreciation 2022

[yash]

no they are not, portraying a morally upstanding character as a cheating piece of garbage is damaging, writing that same character in a setting where you know that he can be himself even though the story potential is limited is not damaging but just underwhelming.

No, I am being level headed and impartial. You are presenting a biased argument based on preferene and now doing so rudely. Its obvious you have no evidence to support you. Grayson ended because Nightwing is more popular. It is what is. It always had a shelf life. He can still do all the same stuff now that he could have done back then. Your "story cap" is a delusion.

That was an example of what damaging a character looks like you kepts suggesting that Me suggesting that bludhaven puts a cap on his story potential means the same as damaging him, that was an example of what damaging a character looks like, when did I claim that dick got damaged, cyclops cheating on Jean damaged his character if he had just stayed the same sure it would be underwhelming but it wouldn't have damaged him, that is what that meant, not that dick cheated the hell did you read that from.

Again Grayson ended because rebirth was a thing, if all it was was that nightwing was more popular then it would have stopped at issue #12 like it was supposed to as opposed to extending because it delivered above expectations

[ayanestar]

Well that’s my point. We also have books with Dick outside of Bludhaven and away from Babs, one where he’s a teacher which was a popular fan pitch, and one where he’s saving the world from big scale threats. Just no one cares about them.

No, I'm pretty sure most people don't enjoy those books because they are badly written. The few issues I have read had weird dialogues as well, so I didn't bother reading the rest. It's a good thing to try out new ideas, but if it isn't well executed, most people won't bother picking it up or continue reading it.

[Iclifton]

That was an example of what damaging a character looks like you kepts suggesting that Me suggesting that bludhaven puts a cap on his story potential means the same as damaging him, that was an example of what damaging a character looks like, when did I claim that dick got damaged, cyclops cheating on Jean damaged his character if he had just stayed the same sure it would be underwhelming but it wouldn't have damaged him, that is what that meant, not that dick cheated the hell did you read that from.

Again Grayson ended because rebirth was a thing, if all it was was that nightwing was more popular then it would have stopped at issue #12 like it was supposed to as opposed to extending because it delivered above expectations

I honestly do not even understand what kind of argument your making. I already illustrated that the Nightwing book in no way limits him. Writers can still choose to write all of those things. It in no way puts a cap. A writer just has to choose to do it.

Its obvious that your biased and refuse to see the validity of other peoples view whose do not match your own.

[yash]

no he can't, if they could have happened then they would have happened, it's precisely because they would have happened in all these years that they could have, again you think I'm attached to the spy angle I'm not, i just think there is a ceiling on how good a story one can tell in bludhaven with nightwing and Barbra, evident by the fact that dick in all these years has yet to have his own 'grim hunt' or 'the gauntlet' or 'roulete' or 'kraven's last hunt' during his nightwing stint

Some people would consider this that story. Some people consider Dixons run to be that caliber. its all opinion. But additionally, having strong creative teams helps to get those classics. Dick has not consistently had that. Not many characters do have as many classics as Spider-man.

Its all about what writers choose to write. They could use those story elements. Some could say Grayson limits him from doing superhero stuff long term. Does not make it true. The team just has to decide to use those elements. Barbara or Bludhaven would not get in the way of that.

I have my preference for the character. But I do not act like its fact.

Your pointing to a book that`s killing it and yelling "its holding him back, its not working".

see this is my problem you keep telling me that I am making arguments that I'm just not making, did i deny that it's selling? No, did I say it's not working? No do i think it puts a cap on his story potential? yes, those are not the same thing and yet you claim i said yes to all of them, dick Grayson always does decent numbers even when he's Rick Grayson, sales don't impress me when it comes to him, you keep saying strong creative teams create stories, well it's not just that now is it? I have already established all the rules that bat editorial imposes which hold him back, those are self inflicted wounds obviously and then they look at their own rules and then think of him as pointless, it's the reason didio wanted to off him, so it's why I think bludhaven holds the writters back from telling great stories

[Iclifton]

I`ve said multpe times what I am denying is that it puts a cap on his potential. I did not mention sales. I have pointed out that it no way caps story potential. Your going in circles. I also did not refer to sales in my last post. You keep bringing those up.

A writer can choose to use any story elements they wish. Haven and Babs do not stop him from using any story beats.

A lot of people would consider this to be a strong and creative run. Just because you don`t, does not make it fact.

Sure edirotial and Didio held him back. Thats no longer the case. And also not a problem inherent to Bludhaven or Babs.

[yash]

I honestly do not even understand what kind of argument your making. I already illustrated that the Nightwing book in no way limits him. Writers can still choose to write all of those things. It in no way puts a cap. A writer just has to choose to do it.

Its obvious that your biased and refuse to see the validity of other peoples view whose do not match your own.

no you haven't illustrated anything, you have just given empty platitudes for answers 'all it takes is a strong team to tell great stories" no it doesn't it takes a strong creative teams with the freedom to tell the stories they want to tell, which most can't because there rules, some rules that we as fans impose and some that the editorial does, the rules that get imposed on dick when he operates in bludhaven as nightwing hold him back everytime major events happen that is all I have been saying

[Iclifton]

no you haven't illustrated anything, you have just given empty platitudes for answers 'all it takes is a strong team to tell great stories" no it doesn't it takes a strong creative teams with the freedom to tell the stories they want to tell, which most can't because there rules, some rules that we as fans impose and some that the editorial does, the rules that get imposed on dick when he operates in bludhaven as nightwing hold him back everytime major events happen that is all I have been saying

Bludhaven and Babs do not contribute to him being held back. The only one delivering empty platitudes is you. We currently have a team with creative freedom. And a ton of people dig it. You don`t. But that does mean its holds the character back.

Bludhaven and Babs have nothing to do Nightwing getting pulled into big events. That would happen regardless of status quo. The second half of Grayson had editorial issues and forced crossovers as well.

Higgins run was the most editorial interfered with run so far and had no Bludhaven and only one issue with Babs. Your argument is nonsensical.

[ayanestar]

This whole discussion just made me realise how much I've enjoyed reading Grayson, so don't mind me sharing my favorite panel
I kinda miss Midnighter. His solo series and the follow-up series with Apollo were a lot of fun, hope Orlando gets to write him again.

NW2.jpg

[yash]

I`ve said multpe times what I am denying is that it puts a cap on his potential. I did not mention sales. I have pointed out that it no way caps story potential. Your going in circles. I also did not refer to sales in my last post. You keep bringing those up.

A writer can choose to use any story elements they wish. Haven and Babs do not stop him from using any story beats.

A lot of people would consider this to be a strong and creative run. Just because you don`t, does not make it fact.

Sure edirotial and Didio held him back. Thats no longer the case. And also not a problem inherent to Bludhaven or Babs.

if your going to keep insisting on "that's just your opinion" and then use the words "it's killing it" then obviously I will infer that you are referring to the most objective way that it be thought of as to how it's 'killing it' which is sales, everything else I've already addressed

[Iclifton]

This whole discussion just made me realise how much I've enjoyed reading Grayson, so don't mind me sharing my favorite panel
I kinda miss Midnighter. His solo series and the follow-up series with Apollo were a lot of fun, hope Orlando gets to write him again.

NW2.jpg

Sorry for high jacking the thread to all!

This was so cool. I think Dick vs Midnighter in issue 6 is my fav fight for the character. That or him vs the two talons in Higgins run.

Really showed off his wits as well as physicality.

[yash]

Bludhaven and Babs do not contribute to him being held back. The only one delivering empty platitudes is you. We currently have a team with creative freedom. And a ton of people dig it. You don`t. But that does mean its holds the character back.

Bludhaven and Babs have nothing to do Nightwing getting pulled into big events. That would happen regardless of status quo. The second half of Grayson had editorial issues and forced crossovers as well.

Higgins run was the most editorial interfered with run so far and had no Bludhaven and only one issue with Babs. Your argument is nonsensical.

no you are making my point not just about bludhaven and barbs but also nightwing and bat editorial, you're just selectively choosing to be difficult in spots that undermine your argument

[Iclifton]

if your going to keep insisting on "that's just your opinion" and then use the words "it's killing it" then obviously I will infer that you are referring to the most objective way that it be thought of as to how it's 'killing it' which is sales, everything else I've already addressed

Nope, since we are discussing quality of story, I am referring more to critical, fan and overall reception which has been very positive.

I do not disagree with the bat editorial portion and never said I did. They did hold the character back. I blame them. Not Bludhaven or Babs for limiting the story. This no longer appears to be the case as DC comics is giving Dick quite the push.

Regardless, I am over this discussion. At this point I am hijacking the thread and its obvious there's no way I am going to get you to look at it from any other perspective other than the stories that you personally enjoy. Which is fine. I am sure at some point another experimental run will come along that you`ll enjoy. Then more Bludhaven.

[Ascended]

Honestly, I'm not sure Nightwing is so strong as a brand.

In Nightwing's case, all the popularity of the identity seems to be associated with Dick (and he being the ex Robin). I don't think the Nightwing identity has so much popularity by itself.

I meant that "Nightwing" is a stronger, more marketable brand than "Grayson." It's not that Dick is crazy super well known by the general public, it's that he's more recognizable in the Nightwing suit and name than he is going by "Grayson" or "Agent 37" and wearing generic quasi-tactical spy gear.

But I do think Nightwing is a relatively well known commodity. Obviously not as well known as the big iconic characters, or even the guys who have gotten trilogies out of the MCU, but Nightwing has been appearing fairly regularly in larger media since the 90's. Sure, it's always as part of a larger team (the Bats, or the Titans, or Young Justice, etc) but he's there, and often enough for the casual nerd to remember and recognize. He may not always be treated as "the" draw, but he's usually treated as "a" draw, yknow?

And yes, of course all the identity's popularity is tied to Dick, why wouldn't it be? Even the nerds like me who remember that the name originated with Silver Age Krypton believe that the identity belongs to Dick.

[WonderNight]

You know after stopping by the talia tread I kinda miss dick and talia's relationship. I know she now more tied to damian and jason but I do miss it.

[Godlike13]

No, I'm pretty sure most people don't enjoy those books because they are badly written. The few issues I have read had weird dialogues as well, so I didn't bother reading the rest. It's a good thing to try out new ideas, but if it isn't well executed, most people won't bother picking it up or continue reading it.

Your missing my point, while further making my point. The problem isn’t that he’s being prevented, the avenues are there, those books are for whatever reason just failing to get anyone to care.

His book is being criticized for having him in Bludhaven and being with Babs, and claiming that those things are limiting his stories and the kinds of stories they can tell. But they are telling stories with him where he’s outside of Bludhaven and away from Babs, interacting with others from the greater DCU, and dealing with big scale things and various areas like magic and spy teams. They just aren’t very good and failing the generate much interest.