As a whole, the Batbooks are in poor shape. Agree? Disagree?

[millernumber1]

What do you guys not like about the King run?

I'm not a King hater at all. But neither am I currently pulling his run on Batman. I think King works best on a monthly book where he has lot of time to plan all of the little details that add up to powerful conclusions - honestly, I think he's best in 12-issue miniseries. A twice-monthly book just stretches him past his ability to plan and construct carefully, so you get mysteries where the clues are slipshod (I Am Gotham), endings that don't really land (all of the I Am trilogy), a flashback that spends too much time on summary issue after issue (War of Jokes and Riddles), and an engagement which hops from artist to artist without much actual momentum. There's some real gold in there - the Rooftops issue, and opening of I Am Suicide, the parallels of I Am Bane and Superfriends - but it's inconsistent, as opposed to the carefully built burn of Vision, Omega Men, Mister Miracle, and to some extent Grayson.

IDK about that. Dixon already wrote nearly 100 issues of Detective Comics in the 90s. And hundreds more issues of supplementary Batman material besides. I can't imagine, given the monumental amount of Batman-related material he's written, that he has very much more to say about the character.

Also he always seemed to very much dislike the Batman/Catwoman relationship, so giving him 'Tec right now might be inviting trouble.

I don't know that Dixon has nothing to say about Batman. At the very least, he'd give us solid individual stories for Batman, and that's kind of hit or miss these days. But I do think that he doesn't fit with the current tone and characterization of Batman.

Dixon is the opposite of what DC needs right now, imo. The same retreads aren't moving them forward. They need more young, fresh writers with diverse backgrounds and styles. I think the way they are doing it now with people like Dixon, Isabella and Adams doing minis is perfect. That way the older fans can get what they want while also giving different writers a chance.

Hmm. I'm not convinced that seasoned veterans is the wrong way to go - Jurgens has been reasonably popular on Action, I believe. But I also think that giving the seasoned veterans like Dixon and Wolfman their Bane and Raven maxiseries is a fun thing for fans and writers.

Tim is my all time favorite (at least the dixon incarnation) but even I don't want this.

'Tec is pretty good, when it doesn't involve Tim and Steph. Dixon writing a Tim/Steph book would be okay (though still a retread), but I don't think replacing Tynion on 'TEC is the answer.

I agree. I think Tynion is doing fine, and replacing him to get a better version of what he's already trying to do isn't going to go well.

While I dont want Dixon either this is the first time I'm hearing about him disliking Bat/Cat.

I don't think he does, per se. I think he's so ingrained into the Denny O'Neil "Batman shouldn't be with any woman, because if you start with one, all of the writers will write him with their favorite character." And that's exactly what happened right after O'Neil left. But Dixon loves Selina as a character.

Disagree. I think they're in pretty good shape. Could they improve? Yep. But you could say that about almost every book in comics.

Hear hear!

[JBatmanFan05]

Hmm. I'm not convinced that seasoned veterans is the wrong way to go - Jurgens has been reasonably popular on Action, I believe. But I also think that giving the seasoned veterans like Dixon and Wolfman their Bane and Raven maxiseries is a fun thing for fans and writers.

I don't want to make any accusations, but sometimes I sense (rightly or wrongly) some conscious or subconscious ageism when it comes to the issue of veteran writers. We even see it with politicians IMHO. This almost presumption that they couldn't seem fresh or adapt a bit to the current year or time or something. That they can't contribute.

[Barbatos666]

I didn't kbow that about O'Neal, if true he needs to return asap. He'd kill shipping.

[Daniel22]

I don't want to make any accusations, but sometimes I sense (rightly or wrongly) some ageism when it comes to the issue of veteran writers. We even see it with politicians IMHO. This almost presumption that they couldn't seem fresh or adapt a bit to the current year or time or something.

I'm sure that happens sometimes. I'm basing my opinion (that the older writers shouldn't shape the larger universe) on their current work. I've read all of the titles mentioned, plus all of the Nocenti, Giffen, DeMattias etc work of the recent past, and they felt overwhelmingly dated. I think that those writers had a chance to show that they could be fresh and adapt, but didn't pull it off. I think it would be ageist to say for example "No way Moench could write a decent book" if I hadn't read anything from him in years. But I have read Wolfman, Isabella, Dixon, Jurgens and others recently, so I feel confident ageism isn't shaping my opinion with these particular writers.

[Daniel22]

I'm not a King hater at all. But neither am I currently pulling his run on Batman. I think King works best on a monthly book where he has lot of time to plan all of the little details that add up to powerful conclusions - honestly, I think he's best in 12-issue miniseries. A twice-monthly book just stretches him past his ability to plan and construct carefully, so you get mysteries where the clues are slipshod (I Am Gotham), endings that don't really land (all of the I Am trilogy), a flashback that spends too much time on summary issue after issue (War of Jokes and Riddles), and an engagement which hops from artist to artist without much actual momentum. There's some real gold in there - the Rooftops issue, and opening of I Am Suicide, the parallels of I Am Bane and Superfriends - but it's inconsistent, as opposed to the carefully built burn of Vision, Omega Men, Mister Miracle, and to some extent Grayson.



Hmm. I'm not convinced that seasoned veterans is the wrong way to go - Jurgens has been reasonably popular on Action, I believe. But I also think that giving the seasoned veterans like Dixon and Wolfman their Bane and Raven maxiseries is a fun thing for fans and writers.

Thanks for the breakdown. I don't agree with you but I appreciate the answer. I can see what you mean about him being best at a deliberate, slow burn kind of story, but I also think he's doing a great job twice a month on Batman.

I'd like to hear from the people who really dislike him. I saw someone say it was the worst run of comics he's ever read. I get it, opinions, hyperbole.. but the worst? I'd be interested to hear the thought behind that.

[Starrius]

I like Batman comics because Catwoman is back to being his love interest.
Right now, I like Batman comics more than Spider-Man until Spider-Man gets back together with Mary Jane.

[reni344]

I like Batman comics because Catwoman is back to being his love interest.
Right now, I like Batman comics more than Spider-Man until Spider-Man gets back together with Mary Jane.

Literally how I feel this is the most Batman I have read since Grant Morrison was on the title

[Arrowfan51]

Literally how I feel this is the most Batman I have read since Grant Morrison was on the title

I love kings run and how well the Cat/bat relationship is done. I really hope it isnt going to be a cope out at the end. I would love for five or ten years where batman and catwoman are like lois and clark.


Im also out of spiderman until he is at least dating mj again.

[Aahz]

I think both Batman and Tec have massive problems with plotting, to often the stories just don't make sense.

I also miss coordination between the different books, and it often feels like there isn't really a fixed staus quo. It is for examle shown that Damian lives in Wayne Manor in Super Sons (and iirc Nightwing), but Batman and TEC ignore his existence for the most part.

When it comes to Batman I just don't like Kings writing.

TEC is imo to event driven and to focused on Batwoman (who has opposed to the rest of the cast a solo book), and should take more time to explore the personal live of the team members. That the cast and the status quo changes in almost every arc is also not really helping.

When it comes to the different characters it looks imo like that.

- Dick seems in good place, only Titans is not that great at the moment.

- The same is true for Damian, only that as Robin he should pop up more in Batman.

- Jasons own book in a good shape, but he needs to be written more capable and edgy when he appears in the Batman books (even in his own books he could be written more capable imo), and it is really time that he gets some bigger story or event.

- Barbara need to be written more mature again, and to be treated like a core Batfamily member and not like a fringe character, abd she should also soon get some big story.

- In Tims case I don't feel like his "death" so early after rebirth was really a good idea, and I'm also not really excited about the Titans of Tomorrow thing, and they need really to flesh out his private live again and do something with his parents.

- How Staph acted after Tim's death was also not great.

- I don't have the feeling that they really know what to do with Cass.

- In Dukes case it feels like the writers want him to be pushed for some reason, but are not really interested in doing it (but i haven't checked out his mini).

[Doctor Bifrost]

- I don't have the feeling that they really know what to do with Cass.

Wow, is this ever true!

I'm not even a big Cass fan. I find her backstory of child abuse, both physical and psychological (to the point where she was basically not even taught how to speak), and being forced to be a murderer, is too ugly for my tastes. Yes, I know, Bat-characters tend to be built on tragedy, and many people love a good redemption arc - but there's a difference between tragedy and Grand Guignol, and this crosses the line for me, at least as far as kids in the DC superhero universe goes. (Other readers have their lines in other places, and they are entitled to them - and don't need me to tell them that.)

But even I can see that she can be a good character, if given the chance and written well. But there's no consistency there, she doesn't get anything even resembling her own supporting cast (everything about her stories is about the Bat-family and sometimes Lady Shiva), and I really dislike the superhero name "Orphan." They can do much better for her.

[WontonGirl]

I didn't kbow that about O'Neal, if true he needs to return asap. He'd kill shipping.

O'Neil was NOT a fan of Catwoman at all so if he came back, you would still get shipping, just with his creation and Catwoman would pretty much be gone. Like gone, gone. No stories with her in it at all.

[WontonGirl]

I think that what a person considers the "best" or the "worst" just depends on what that fan is looking for in the particular books. For example, if you are a fan of constant action Batman or if you are a fan of the more "Detective" side of Batman, your favorite book or run would be the book that is delivering that to you.

Different things draw people to the various books at various times. And if a certain writer is giving them that, then they are good. Like some fans liking SuperSons because they like seeing Jon and Damian kind of on there on vs. in the Superman book.

[WontonGirl]

One more thing, I think that for most of the "hardcore, action" Batman fans, as long as he is fighting crime and going up against villains and defeating them, I think most fans would be fine. Extra points if he is doing with Robin and maybe another person like a Batgirl or maybe Cat.

Everything else, who he dates, who he sleeps with, if ALL of the Robins are there, if Supes come in and out of the book; to be honest, none of that really matters and can honestly be worked out. HUSH was a great example of Batman fighting crime, taking on the villains, having Alfred there, a little romance, Robins, allies, Gordon; all in one nice neat little package. And it was a good set of issues. So it can be done.

But as long as we get action Batman or Detective Batman, I think some fans would be fine. So increase that in BOTH the Bat title and the Tec title and I think we would be good. I think King is going to try to do that so I will give it time. Tec, well it does seem very Batwoman focused but maybe people wanted that? And there are probably fans that like seeing the Batfamily in the book as well.

[Denirac]

My Thoughts are Yes and No.

King's Batman is meh to me, I really like some arcs and issues and despise others
All Star was great
Batman Beyond.... I dig it
Tec..... Bad.... Just Bad... I read in hope Azrael contributes something
Birds of Prey..... Dont get me started
Batgirl... Meh
Nightwing- I really liked until Humphries started... now I'm on the fence
Red Hood- Great
Metal is AMAZING!!!

JL, Teen Titans and Titans I really try to like (I count then here because of Bruce, Damian and Nightwing) but Titans is Difficult to Like and Priest threw me for a loop with his ending last issue

[Daniel22]

It seems like the major complaint with Detective is that a character isn't getting enough panel time and/or is going in a direction you don't like.

Is that fair to say, those of you who don't like Detective? Or are there other main reasons?