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  1. #1606
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    This run is good and the best solo Nightwing run we have had since Grayson. Who cares if John made a mistake and had an affair. Kind of a dick move yeah, but it does not automatically make him a bad person. Besides does anyone really have an attachment to John Grayson, like has he ever been a three dimensional character? Excited to see how this plays out and happy to have new characters specific to the Grayson mythos. Enjoying this runs more character centric focus.
    Last edited by Conn Seanery; 06-11-2021 at 02:02 PM.

  2. #1607
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badou View Post
    You've been driving that Tayor bandwagon so hard that he could say that Dick was a robot from the future all along and you'd call it a clever twist, lol.

    spoilers:
    I'm just never a fan of stories that ruin a character's parents for cheap drama. It's such a lazy writing technique, especially when the parents are dead. So I thought the Raptor thing with Dick's mom was stupid and pointless, and I could have sworn when I mentioned it at the time if Seeley was hinting at him being Dick's real father that you were very against that notion, but maybe that was someone else. Been like 4 years now. At least with Raptor Seeley tried to build him up before the stupid tease, so he had some kind of character, but the Melinda character for Taylor is completely propped up on the drama of being Dick's lost sister, which never works. She is going to be sent to limbo in a few years with everyone remembering how dumb the whole plot was.

    With this new "reveal" I just don't like how it ruins Dick's father potentially for more cheep drama. But when you are stuck writing in a dull setting like Bludhaven, and reusing dead horses like Zucco and Blockbuster, this is the kind of awful stories that it breeds. Just a lack of any real creativity. I already didn't think Tayor's writing was very good, but having to now drag around this sister plot is just going to be such a chore to get through.
    end of spoilers
    Taylor hasn’t revealed anything. Your going off leaks as if that’s the complete story or the intended way it’s suppose to be presented. These reveals don’t inherently bother me. They take care of themselves. Like I said, if there is worth to them more things will be done, if not then they just disappear to the wayside and we all just move on.
    But I’m not just gonna poop on the idea before I see it have a chance to play out. I even gave Ric the benefit of the the doubt. It wasn’t till they announce the creators executing the idea that I was like oh, ****. We’re in trouble. I’m not gonna turn my nose up because the first relevant creators the character has seen in years wants to play with toys i don’t think they should play with. Taylor and Redondo are operating in ways that pleases me, I’m not ignoring the things I think they are doing well because I for instance just can’t see beyond Bludhaven or my own conceptions on what I think this run should be. Im certainly not a fan of Dick and Tim team ups, but that didn’t stop the last issue from being IMO their best yet. Cause it was a thing of beauty to look at, and the writer had enough sense to realize that.

    I’m not looking for Ric where clueless writers think they are doing something modern and bold, but don’t even actually know how to do something new and bold. But I’m not against writers playing with the perceived notions of their audience. I thought what Seeley did was highly amusing. Leaving that kind of tease for the readers to chew on as he walks. That was bold. I respect that. It wasn’t something that was supposed to be easy to digest, but to make readers uncomfortable and question it.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 06-11-2021 at 02:09 PM.

  3. #1608
    Extraordinary Member Badou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iclifton View Post
    Not too be rude, but man Grayson fans wine about literally everything. The story has to be precise cocktail of exact preferred story elements to even be considered decent. Its very obvious this run is good and the best solo Nightwing run we have had since Grayson. Who cares if John made a mistake and had an affair. Kind of a dick move yeah, but it does not automatically make him a bad person. Besides does anyone really have an attachment to John Grayson, like has he ever been a three dimensional character? Excited to see how this plays out and happy to have new characters specific to the Grayson mythos. Enjoying this runs more character centric focus.
    So because Dick's father hasn't been fleshed out well is a reason to throw dirt on him? What is wrong with having Dick's parents in a committed loving relationship? Does every hero need their parents to have some dark past? It's so tiring. The biggest reason writers don't used Dick's father more is because they don't want to diminish Dick's relationship to Bruce and want Bruce to be THE father/family focus of Dick's character. That is very obvious. They did that with all the Robin's fathers. They pretty much destroyed Tim's whole family to make him revolve around Bruce more as his father figure.

    I mean writers can show John Grayson in a good light and build him up in more stories. I'd be all for that, but this kind of lazy drama never works. Comics are littered with these same stories and they always end up being such a waste of time. So instead of spending time on more interesting plots we get stuck with one most don't care about or even wanted. To me it is a waste of Redondo's art.

    I've been consistent in my opinion on this run. I think it is the best art that has ever been in a Nightwing book, but I don't think the writing is that good and I think Bludhaven is an awful setting. So far nothing has changed my opinion on those things. Cheap family drama isn't going to help with that, and the forced Zucco connection is going to make it even more convoluted.

  4. #1609
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    No that`s not the reason. The reason for this plot development has not yet been revealed . We do not even know if he had an affair. But instead of going into the story with an open mind everyone is trashing it. The point is, John is not some sacred character. He is free game. We do not know if it will be lazy drama or if it will be used in a way to explore Dick Grayson, just like his new inheritance is. As of yet there has been no unnecessary drama in the book.

    Yes, I know, I have read your posts. It is obvious as long as the book is in Bludhaven your gong to hate it. As Nightwing is my favorite character, I only care about good stories. It does not matter to me where, what or when regarding plot.

  5. #1610
    Extraordinary Member Badou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    Taylor hasn’t revealed anything. Your going off leaks as if that’s the complete story or the intended way it’s suppose to be presented. These reveals don’t inherently bother me. They take care of themselves. Like I said, if there is worth to them more things will be done, if not then they just disappear to the wayside and we all just move on.
    But I’m not just gonna poop on the idea before I see it have a chance to play out. I even gave Ric the benefit of the the doubt. It wasn’t till they announce the creators executing the idea that I was like oh, ****. We’re in trouble. I’m not gonna turn my nose up because the first relevant creators the character has seen in years wants to play with toys i don’t think they should play with. Taylor and Redondo are operating in ways that pleases me, I’m not ignoring the things I think they are doing well because I for instance just can’t see beyond Bludhaven or my own conceptions on what I think this run should be. Im certainly not a fan of Dick and Tim team ups, but that didn’t stop the last issue from being IMO their best yet. Cause it was a thing of beauty to look at, and the writer had enough sense to realize that.

    I’m not looking for Ric where clueless writers think they are doing something modern and bold, but don’t even actually know how to do something new and bold. But I’m not against writers playing with the perceived notions of their audience. I thought what Seeley did was highly amusing. Leaving that kind of tease for the readers to chew on as he walks. That was bold. I respect that. It wasn’t something that was supposed to be easy to digest, but to make readers uncomfortable and question it.
    Taylor had won you over before the first issue even came out. You looked at him as a relevant creator and because of that you were willing to overlook things you probably wouldn't for lesser writers. There is nothing wrong with feeling that way of course, you are already committed to putting your trust in him, but that is just the opposite to how I feel. I'm not willing to give creators the benefit of the doubt regardless of status. Maybe because I am too cynical now. Still, Taylor has to win me over and so far he as not and the story and things he is setting up aren't things that are probably going to lead to me looking at him any differently. He was already facing a near impossible challenge because of Bludhaven and Blockbuster, and as this story has unfolded I feel more right in my opinions, but even with trying to be objective as I can be I don't think the writing as been all that strong in this book. Redondo is carrying the series hard. So I can't just unconditionally trust a writer and plots with bad setups when I don't think he is doing a good job.

    But this is a kind of storyline that pops up every year in superhero comics. Apparently they just did it in Spider-man a few years ago and just recently retconned it? It's so lazy. Sure, it could all be a fake-out, or something completely different, and these are why writers do these kind of stories. It's soap opera drama where they want to keep you coming back for the next issue/episode and keep you asking questions with each new shocking "reveal". I think also arrogance also plays a role in wanting to be the creator that changes a 80+ year old character's history in a dramatic way, which is maybe why it keeps happening over and over despite the stories never working.

  6. #1611
    Mighty Member dropkickjake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badou View Post
    Taylor had won you over before the first issue even came out. You looked at him as a relevant creator and because of that you were willing to overlook things you probably wouldn't for lesser writers. There is nothing wrong with feeling that way of course, you are already committed to putting your trust in him, but that is just the opposite to how I feel. I'm not willing to give creators the benefit of the doubt regardless of status. Maybe because I am too cynical now. Still, Taylor has to win me over and so far he as not and the story and things he is setting up aren't things that are probably going to lead to me looking at him any differently. He was already facing a near impossible challenge because of Bludhaven and Blockbuster, and as this story has unfolded I feel more right in my opinions, but even with trying to be objective as I can be I don't think the writing as been all that strong in this book. Redondo is carrying the series hard. So I can't just unconditionally trust a writer and plots with bad setups when I don't think he is doing a good job.

    But this is a kind of storyline that pops up every year in superhero comics. Apparently they just did it in Spider-man a few years ago and just recently retconned it? It's so lazy. Sure, it could all be a fake-out, or something completely different, and these are why writers do these kind of stories. It's soap opera drama where they want to keep you coming back for the next issue/episode and keep you asking questions with each new shocking "reveal". I think also arrogance also plays a role in wanting to be the creator that changes a 80+ year old character's history in a dramatic way, which is maybe why it keeps happening over and over despite the stories never working.
    Maybe don’t inform people of how or when they make decisions about stories?

    Edit: felt a little out of line there. Apologies.
    Last edited by dropkickjake; 06-11-2021 at 03:22 PM.

  7. #1612
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iclifton View Post
    No that`s not the reason. The reason for this plot development has not yet been revealed . We do not even know if he had an affair. But instead of going into the story with an open mind everyone is trashing it. The point is, John is not some sacred character. He is free game. We do not know if it will be lazy drama or if it will be used in a way to explore Dick Grayson, just like his new inheritance is. As of yet there has been no unnecessary drama in the book.

    Yes, I know, I have read your posts. It is obvious as long as the book is in Bludhaven your gong to hate it. As Nightwing is my favorite character, I only care about good stories. It does not matter to me where, what or when regarding plot.
    I mean, Dick is driven in part by the death of his parents who he looked up to (not to the same extent as Bruce, but still) so I think their moral character does hold some importance.

    I'm not against Taylor or Bludhaven and even I think this will possibly end up being a really unnecessary story point.

  8. #1613
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I mean, Dick is driven in part by the death of his parents who he looked up to (not to the same extent as Bruce, but still) so I think their moral character does hold some importance.
    Keep in mind we still don't know the full story yet, but you think Dick would not want to capture the killer of his parents cause of this?

    It changes nothing. John still is his pops, still loved him.
    DC: Dick Grayson, Wally West, Donna Troy, Yara Flor, Titans

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  9. #1614
    Extraordinary Member Badou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dropkickjake View Post
    Maybe don’t inform people of how or when they make decisions about stories? I’m sure you aren’t a pompous fella, but it can sorta come off that way. Not a great look.
    Might need to read a bit closer next time. It was all a response to Godlike informing of my own opinion with the "I’m not ignoring the things I think they are doing well because I for instance just can’t see beyond Bludhaven or my own conceptions on what I think this run should be" line. I don't feel offended that he feels that way about my opinions, but I also think him putting his complete trust into Taylor because he thinks he is a big named and talented writer is fine too. I'm just not willing to do the same for the reasons I've stated already.

  10. #1615
    Mighty Member dropkickjake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badou View Post
    Might need to read a bit closer next time. It was all a response to Godlike informing of my own opinion with the "I’m not ignoring the things I think they are doing well because I for instance just can’t see beyond Bludhaven or my own conceptions on what I think this run should be" line. I don't feel offended that he feels that way about my opinions, but I also think him putting his complete trust into Taylor because he thinks he is a big named and talented writer is fine too. I'm just not willing to do the same for the reasons I've stated already.
    Yeah I did miss that. Also edited the post because I felt I was bit out of line. You have my apology for that.

  11. #1616
    Extraordinary Member Badou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dropkickjake View Post
    Yeah I did miss that. Also edited the post because I felt I was bit out of line. You have my apology for that.
    No worries. I can completely see how my post would have come across like that. If Godlike feels offended by it then I'm sorry to him as well.

  12. #1617
    Mighty Member Rakiduam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iclifton View Post
    This run is good and the best solo Nightwing run we have had since Grayson. Who cares if John made a mistake and had an affair. Kind of a dick move yeah, but it does not automatically make him a bad person. Besides does anyone really have an attachment to John Grayson, like has he ever been a three dimensional character? Excited to see how this plays out and happy to have new characters specific to the Grayson mythos. Enjoying this runs more character centric focus.
    I care. it's bad enough that nothing is been built now they are trashing the past for cheap melodrama. I would think that Dick is attached to his dad.

    They really have nothing new to offer, character centric focus is basically treading water without doing anything worthy of remembering by now. I'm as exited about a half sister as I was about they thief uncle that Grayson introduced on her run, I'm sure it's going to be almost as succeful as that one.

    This is so basic and unoriginal that everybody guess it when they posted the solicitation.
    Last edited by Rakiduam; 06-11-2021 at 04:26 PM.

  13. #1618
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badou View Post
    Taylor had won you over before the first issue even came out. You looked at him as a relevant creator and because of that you were willing to overlook things you probably wouldn't for lesser writers. There is nothing wrong with feeling that way of course, you are already committed to putting your trust in him, but that is just the opposite to how I feel. I'm not willing to give creators the benefit of the doubt regardless of status. Maybe because I am too cynical now. Still, Taylor has to win me over and so far he as not and the story and things he is setting up aren't things that are probably going to lead to me looking at him any differently. He was already facing a near impossible challenge because of Bludhaven and Blockbuster, and as this story has unfolded I feel more right in my opinions, but even with trying to be objective as I can be I don't think the writing as been all that strong in this book. Redondo is carrying the series hard. So I can't just unconditionally trust a writer and plots with bad setups when I don't think he is doing a good job.

    But this is a kind of storyline that pops up every year in superhero comics. Apparently they just did it in Spider-man a few years ago and just recently retconned it? It's so lazy. Sure, it could all be a fake-out, or something completely different, and these are why writers do these kind of stories. It's soap opera drama where they want to keep you coming back for the next issue/episode and keep you asking questions with each new shocking "reveal". I think also arrogance also plays a role in wanting to be the creator that changes a 80+ year old character's history in a dramatic way, which is maybe why it keeps happening over and over despite the stories never working.
    This plot hasn’t even been set up though. We got a leak, not the story setting it up, but nevertheless it’s vindication. Your not even really judging the job their doing here. Lesser writers are lesser because their work is less than. Not just in the ideas, but in the ways they present those ideas. How they formate them, structure them, and ultimately execute them. With dated techniques like padded intros, and overwriting explaining to readers every action and thought. Your not seeing this here. There is a comfort in that that opens up more latitude for the ideas with me.
    I’m not hiding it, they did win me over with Taylor. That was not a name I was expecting to see on the title. I also understand though I’m not going to get every single thing I might want. I don’t hate Bludhaven, but I certainly fell out of favor with it. But ok. What can you do. You take the wins where they’re at. We finally got some decent creators so why not see what they can do with it. Another thing is that I came into this understanding the character’s vulnerable position, and the logic to leaning on things and reintroducing stuff I personally might be bored with but are like it or not staples of his mythos. So I like creators, I understand the why behind the ideas, so ya Im coming in with a more open view and expectations that I might otherwise not in a different situation.

    With Raptor, that wasn’t what the Raptor story was actually about. It was a mic drop at the very end, to leave readers questioning what they thought they knew. They could have left that out and Raptor would still be the best villain Nightwing has seen in decades. Of course it’s all drama though. That’s the game. But the thing is it doesn’t really change the character history. Dick’s history still plays out the same, it just makes readers maybe relook at it in a different way. That’s why it’s not that big a deal, and will live or die on the merits of its execution. It’s Dr. Hurt vs Lincoln March. We don’t know really what we’re even getting here.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 06-11-2021 at 05:00 PM.

  14. #1619
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    I honestly keep forgetting about that Raptor thing because it was so last-minute .

    Not sure why Taylor is doing this other than to set up your new favorite original female character or something.

  15. #1620
    Extraordinary Member Badou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    With Raptor, that wasn’t what the Raptor story was actually about. It was a mic drop at the very end, to leave readers questioning what they thought they knew. They could have left that out and Raptor would still be the best villain Nightwing has seen in decades. Of course it’s all drama though. That’s the game. But the thing is it doesn’t really change the character history. Dick’s history still plays out the same, it just makes readers maybe relook at it in a different way. That’s why it’s not that big a deal, and will live or die on the merits of its execution. It’s Dr. Hurt vs Lincoln March. We don’t know really what we’re even getting here.
    I never really looked at the Raptor thing as a mic drop. I think Seeley knew what he wanted to do from the beginning with his first arc, and it wasn't this shocking reveal once we knew that Raptor was close with Dick's mom shown earlier in the run. I feel like people even back then were speculating on it because Raptor kept talking about Dick's mom so much. The first arc was titled "Better than Batman" where Raptor was introduced and I think Seeley with that title was trying to show that maybe Raptor was better for Dick than Bruce, that he should have been the one to take in Dick, and finally that he might be his actual father. At least coming from Raptor's perspective.

    The issue with this is that removing John Grayson as Dick's father does change things, like the the Court of Owls connection. Then he is no longer related to William Cobb/Talon so fans of that would be upset. The problem also is that Raptor is like a C or D list villain, who has no real weight behind him, and to reduce Dick's father to being that is kind of not worth it. So the whole tease was blah. Since at the moment Raptor is getting his face beaten in by Green Arrow's son in that Robin series, right? For that to be Dick's dad is kind of pathetic, haha.

    But these kind of secret family drama stories never work out. I don't expect this one with Taylor to be any different. The only ones that have any staying power are when you introduce surprise kids of the heroes, as they can then get slotted into some legacy role that might keep them around. Other than that comics are filled with secret family members that were basically a waste of time for cheap drama.

    I mean remember that just last year Jurgens introduced Dick's grandparents, who apparently took in Dick before Bruce did after his parents died, and they were secret Court of Owl operatives used to manipulate Dick? No one remembers this at all because it was an awful story, but it happened. All of this stuff is in the same boat for me. Just needless family drama that never goes anywhere other than to paint Dick's own parents in a bad light for a bit. You see it so much in comics. I get why Taylor is doing it. He is trying to give Dick some personal connection to Bludhaven, since he has none, and making its mayor related to Dick like this is his attempt to give Bludhaven some validation, but of course I don't think it will work. Also to drag back in the Zucco drama where they want Dick to be like Bruce more in that he can't fully escape or move on from his parent's death probably. Higgins was like that too when he wanted to turn Zucco into Dick's own Joker or something originally.
    Last edited by Badou; 06-11-2021 at 05:44 PM.

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