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  1. #46
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lefthanded View Post
    Putting aside any concerns about "Adam Strange would never act this way," think about it more abstractly.

    This Strange Adventure storyline is very similar to the Manchurian Candidate (a very good book and movie). In both, a man comes home from war, is lauded for his actions during the war, but there are some tiny questions as to what actually occurred during the war. Both stories focus on an investigator trying to unravel the conspiracy, all the while the conspiracy is hitting close to home.

    From that standpoint, Tom King has delivered a compelling story, with interesting character interactions, that happens to be set in the DC universe and features Adam Strange.

    I will admit that I don't have any skin in the Adam Strange game, so I don't have any issue with this Black Label (non-canon) series going 'there' with Adam.
    But, I am really surprised by how many Adam Strange fans there suddenly are. At least some of that is probably a strawman to hate on Tom King.

    People's concern that even non-canon stories can influence future canon portrayals is certainly valid, but I think are overblown. Superman going evil is a regular non-canon story device, where there is never any 'concern' expressed of what that means for future canon Superman appearances. Granted it is not a perfect comparison, as A-list characters have more canon "good" appearances than non-canon "evil" appearances, compared to D-list characters, to wash away the non-canon stories. Thus, the fewer appearances by D-list characters results in an increased power for any one appearance to define them.

    But, at the end of the day, it was a well written story, featuring a character that no one cared about (until Tom King featured him), that is officially non-canon.


    Unrelated question lingering from the prior issues: The gap in the defense in Phoenix - Is the implication that the defense would have worked perfectly if the opponent wasn't told about the plan?
    Every character has their fans. It's not like Booster Gold had no fans when Tom King wrote "The Gift." Just because they're not an a-lister or b-lister doesn't mean nobody cares about them.

    Tp be honest I think trying to tell a specific kind of story with DC characters that involves ignoring their prior characterization or what they stand for is super problematic.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by lefthanded View Post
    But, at the end of the day, it was a well written story, featuring a character that no one cared about (until Tom King featured him), that is officially non-canon.
    Are we sure about the last part?

    Because after the move over to Black Label, both King and Gerads claimed it still to be canon. Now it would be easy enough for DC to act like it didn't exist in canon, and it's been over a year since their answer, but has there been anything officially declaring it as being non-canon?
    Last edited by Rend20; 10-13-2021 at 09:08 AM.

  3. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptCleghorn View Post
    We are still talking about the character who cheated on his pregnant wife and whose mistress helped deliver his child, right?
    Didn't Waid retcon that all out (or at least set out to un-do everything "negative" that 90's mini-series did to Adam's status quo) when he did that Adam-centric fill-in story on JLA? As I recall, he didn't even acknowledge said "mistress's" existence or offer an explanation about why she seemed to be no longer on Rann.

  4. #49
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timber Wolf-By-Night View Post
    Didn't Waid retcon that all out (or at least set out to un-do everything "negative" that 90's mini-series did to Adam's status quo) when he did that Adam-centric fill-in story on JLA? As I recall, he didn't even acknowledge said "mistress's" existence or offer an explanation about why she seemed to be no longer on Rann.
    So this isn't the first time.

  5. #50
    insulin4all CaptCleghorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timber Wolf-By-Night View Post
    Didn't Waid retcon that all out (or at least set out to un-do everything "negative" that 90's mini-series did to Adam's status quo) when he did that Adam-centric fill-in story on JLA? As I recall, he didn't even acknowledge said "mistress's" existence or offer an explanation about why she seemed to be no longer on Rann.
    I assume that mini was undone as shown by Alanna being still alive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    So this isn't the first time.
    Nope.
    I’ll don the mask and wear the cape
    If I am super, how can I wait?

  6. #51
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    So because he’s not an A list character he doesn’t have fans? That’s some impressive gatekeeping there. Soldiers always make terrible, morally compromised decisions? Tell me you’ve never served without saying you’ve never served. Soldiers and really all service members DO NOT always make terrible, morally compromised decisions. I know you’re a theater guy but that’s not reality. Does it happen? Of course. Does every service member have to do that? Absolutely not. Regardless of your ignorance on the military though, there are Adam Strange fans and they have every right to be upset over King assassinating yet another DC character. And look how it ended. Shocker. Who ever would have imagined that someone of Kings limited writing ability would go to that well again.

    This was a reply to Batman Jones. Not sure why it didn’t include his post.

  7. #52
    Obsessed & Compelled Bored at 3:00AM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptCleghorn View Post
    We are still talking about the character who cheated on his pregnant wife and whose mistress helped deliver his child, right?
    Yeah, that story got ignored pretty quickly, too, much like this one likely will.

  8. #53
    Extraordinary Member HsssH's Avatar
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    I'm not really a big fan of Adam Strange, but I'm not a big fan of turning heroes into villains either.

  9. #54
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jabare View Post
    this book will have a twist no one will see coming.

    Don't be fooled, things aren't over for Adam Strange yet
    Man, did you back the wrong horse. lol

    This was a solid book for Michael Holt. Everyone else was absolutely tarnished. Beautiful art, but this was an angry work that pretty much made the Adam Strange property radioactive for a while.
    May we never forget:

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    Daddy Zeus can hit the bricks.
    Truer words never spoken.

  10. #55
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BatmanJones View Post
    I’m sorry but who was a major Adam Strange fan before this series? He’s been confined to obscurity for decades and now everyone’s upset over his treatment? If this series hadn’t happened we wouldn’t hear a word from Adam Strange fans here because he would have continued to be absent from the line and I’m sorry but I don’t believe he had serious fans since the 60s, and even then a handful at best.

    I think this is more about the outsized King hate on this board than about the series or the character. I’m not going to tell anyone what to love or hate but for those that hate King’s writing so much I’d suggest they consider appreciating the fact that lately he’s mostly writing about obscure characters that never had a real following before. I can’t wait for the outrage over him ‘ruining’ The Human Target, lol.

    This was a story about war. Soldiers always make terrible, morally compromised decisions during wars, many of those receive medals for it, and none of them return unchanged.

    But mainly I just think it’s silly for readers that didn’t much care for the character before to be upset over his characterization. This series was literally the first time he’s been more than a D-list, two-dimensional also-ran.
    I recognize mistreating a hero and having them betray their core ideals even if I don't particularly love that hero. I don't agree with covering Adam in **** and making him a dumpster fire of a human being when he was always a heroic figure just because I didn't want him on my lunchbox as a kid, and my personal feelings on King's body of work (some of which I enjoy) don't have anything to do with the fact that I don't agree with nuking one DC property to build up the other.

    Frankly, I don't know The Human Target but I love JLI and Ice in particular, and if King's trend of "the misdirection is that it's exactly what I presented at the beginning" holds true, then he took a whimsical character and made her a murderer like that quick heel turn she had in the 90s before they killed her which everyone agreed was asinine.

    King is capable of great work. This was decidedly not it.

    You're right. Soldiers make bad decisions. We're not reading about rank and file soldiers, we're reading about Adam Strange, the hero of Rann-- the one guy who rises above.

    And he got turned into a war criminal, broken mess who traded his child to sue for peace and was later emasculated and then killed by the wife for intended to murder. Such a good way to treat a heroic figure. Hurray.

    It's not that I don't want to see Adam or Alanna or Michael struggle, but goddammit they're all heroic protagonists. I want to see them find a way out that isn't "kill my bitch wife/traitorous monster husband and shuffle my kid off elsewhere while I do what I feel I have to."

    Trying to take legitimate concerns and misgivings about this story into "well people here hate Tom King" is creating the false equivalence that if you think he did a bad job it's because you have a vested interest in hating his work.

    King really misfired here. He meandered for twelve issues with the revelation being what he said it was in issue one, with no real twist or turn to contextualize it other than the freshly hot take that war is pretty horrific.

    Scintillating, that.
    Last edited by Robanker; 10-14-2021 at 03:01 AM.
    May we never forget:

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    Daddy Zeus can hit the bricks.
    Truer words never spoken.

  11. #56
    Three Legged Member married guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Every character has their fans. It's not like Booster Gold had no fans when Tom King wrote "The Gift." Just because they're not an a-lister or b-lister doesn't mean nobody cares about them.

    To be honest I think trying to tell a specific kind of story with DC characters that involves ignoring their prior characterization or what they stand for is super problematic.
    And this is my issue with Tom King's writing.
    He has a habit of shoehorning a character to fit his story - completely ignoring any past characterisation.
    Booster, Wally, Harley, Kyle, now Adam and Alana.
    Well and good all who enjoy his work, but I've found his DC work to be pretty average (with the exception of Omega Men - although his Kyle didn't sit well with me it was a well told story).
    "My name is Wally West. I'm the fastest man alive!"
    I'll try being nicer if you try being smarter.

  12. #57
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by married guy View Post
    And this is my issue with Tom King's writing.
    He has a habit of shoehorning a character to fit his story - completely ignoring any past characterisation.
    Booster, Wally, Harley, Kyle, now Adam and Alana.
    Well and good all who enjoy his work, but I've found his DC work to be pretty average (with the exception of Omega Men - although his Kyle didn't sit well with me it was a well told story).
    Try Superman Up in the Sky, if you haven't.
    May we never forget:

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    Daddy Zeus can hit the bricks.
    Truer words never spoken.

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    Yeah, that story got ignored pretty quickly, too, much like this one likely will.
    We'll see. I can see them sanding the edges of Adam's crimes, while moving forward with widowed Alanna and/or Aleea in a legacy role. The book ended with a viable status quo.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by married guy View Post
    And this is my issue with Tom King's writing.
    He has a habit of shoehorning a character to fit his story - completely ignoring any past characterisation.
    I felt he colored between the lines more faithfully than past reimaginings, but in just.. the most uncharitable way possible. For example, extrapolate from the science monsters of the Silver Age, you get Adam Strange as a creative problem-solver. It's the basis for him being a brilliant tactician. King, however, is selectively literal. "Remember how simple those science monsters were? Anyway, Adam isn't clever, he just lies a lot."

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by I.Strange View Post
    We'll see. I can see them sanding the edges of Adam's crimes, while moving forward with widowed Alanna and/or Aleea in a legacy role. The book ended with a viable status quo.
    I seriously doubt that. This one seems to have landed about as well as Heroes in Crisis did.

    It's almost as if people want superhero stories to be about people who act heroically.

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