Why does DC like killing off characters so much?

[byrd156]

Yeah. gotta agree with that. Green Goblin was Spider-man's #1 enemy for years... but can anyone name a stand out story? I liked Amazing Spider-man #39 (obviously must have had a reprint back in the day...) but for the most part, whenever Norman Osborne is brought up it's in relation to killing Gwen Stacy... or the story where he died... or how much better he was when he was dead... or how his resurrection cheapens the later stories...

Everything revolves around that shocking issue where longtime characters are killed for shock value... and they've become the cornerstone of the franchise.

Same with Barry. Honestly his death in COIE was a pretty lame death.... but it MEANT something to people and became comic book lore.

I can't really blame writers and such hoping to capture that kind of lightning in the bottle again. Deaths make some of the most memorable stories ever.


And many of the worst... Sadly in this day and age, the writers aren't good enough to craft a good death anymore.

Barry's death is one of the best deaths in comics. Sacrificing himself to save the last remnants of reality is so damn epic. It was important and meant something to the larger DCU. I also think Jason's has just a big impact but on the total different side of the spectrum. A character turned into a cautionary tale instead of a heroic sacrifice, you can only do that once but DC mucked that all up by bring ing him back, same with Barry.

The problem with writers now is that they think that death in and of itself makes an epic story. If a character is going to die they need pathos, some important story reason for the death/celebration of what came before, and a blaze of glory of sorts. The last isn't always needed but it really makes an impact when a character goes down swinging like Barry, Supergirl, Doc Ock, etc. I think if Bruce was to ever really 100% die, he should get shot in an alleyway or just die of old age in one. The pathos and full circle of his story works for both ways, the first representing the same way his parents died and that crime isn't something you can just stop and the second is a more hopeful spin that Bruce's mission was worth it in the end.

Just punching someone's head off in the middle of a fight without buildup, dying off panel, or a sudden shift to villain that needs to be killed by a hero are lazy go to story ideas. They have been done to death, it doesn't even feel like they are trying to capture lightning in a bottle but rather manufacture bottles with a cheap lightning logo on the side. I'm tired of the same ideas being done over and over again. It's more of the same attempts but worse each time.

[phantom1592]

I know that we all go around pumping our chests like we all know something to talk about, and in truth, none oof us knows a darn thing, but the death of Barry Allen in Crisis of Infinity Eaths was not lame. It was an editorial decision because sales on the Flash has begun to dive and they felt the character had too much cruft on it and they wanted to start with a new slate.

That's irrelevant. I wasn't talking about the idea of killing off Barry (which I still don't agree was a good move) I was talking about the death itself was pretty lame. When I was reading back in the 90's about Wally and tried to track down what happened to Barry... and I finally got a hold of a copy of that COIE issue... MAN was I disappointed. Running in a circle till he turned to dust?? Lame. It was really one of the most passive deaths I'd ever heard of. I expected much better. There HAS to be a better way to stop a machine like that then just running around it till you die.

Also... on the idea of how important people have made that death.... It had already been retconned. For years. Barry never 'died'... he went into the speed force. That image of his flesh melting and skeleton crumbling... that was retconned a long time before they ever brought him officially back.

You realize that continuing on from Barry and Hal necessarily means stepping back into that era, right? If the argument is that regression is bad then you can't actually play that card. It's a step forward because we took such a huge step backwards.

I think the point is that people who complain about how the silver age characters have taken over and stupidity of Nostalgia... usually ignore the fact that the 90's that spawned Kyle and Wally and Connor are ALSO 30 years ago.

If they want to be new, hip and progressive... the answer isn't shelving Hal... It's shelving Hal AND Kyle and just running with Simon or some new speedster.

People like to complain about the 90's as trash... but most of the Legacy characters came into their own during that time frame.

[Restingvoice]

That's a good point. Metal did sell really well because it has a star team, Batman, lore fanservice, bringing back fan-favorite characters, introducing new elements to the lore, and actually permanently changing the state of the universe.

The death of Superman and Jason sells because it's Superman and Robin. Death of Lagoon Boy on his own will not sell his book but having Wally and Roy dying as well, in an event starring fan favorite Harley and Booster, Batman and Justice League will.

My only hope is the people who stop buying because of Wally and Roy outnumber people who buy because of Harley and Batman, because I personally against stories that promote death, but the latter two are DC cash cow, so I'm not expecting much.

[mrbrklyn]

I think the point is that people who complain about how the silver age characters have taken over and stupidity of Nostalgia...

No, the books were better then and the story and art much better as well. Nostalgia is not stupid. It is proof of human intelligence. Never trust someone who is younger than 40...
at least.

[mrbrklyn]

That's irrelevant. I wasn't talking about the idea of killing off Barry (which I still don't agree was a good move) I was talking about the death itself was pretty lame. When I was reading back in the 90's about Wally and tried to track down what happened to Barry... and I finally got a hold of a copy of that COIE issue... MAN was I disappointed. Running in a circle till he turned to dust?? Lame. It was really one of the most passive deaths I'd ever heard of. I expected much better. There HAS to be a better way to stop a machine like that then just running around it till you die.

Also... on the idea of how important people have made that death.... It had already been retconned. For years. Barry never 'died'... he went into the speed force. That image of his flesh melting and skeleton crumbling... that was retconned a long time before they ever brought him officially back.




I think the point is that people who complain about how the silver age characters have taken over and stupidity of Nostalgia... usually ignore the fact that the 90's that spawned Kyle and Wally and Connor are ALSO 30 years ago.

If they want to be new, hip and progressive... the answer isn't shelving Hal... It's shelving Hal AND Kyle and just running with Simon or some new speedster.

People like to complain about the 90's as trash... but most of the Legacy characters came into their own during that time frame.

[mrbrklyn]

[mrbrklyn]

[mrbrklyn]

[phantom1592]

Barry's death is one of the best deaths in comics. Sacrificing himself to save the last remnants of reality is so damn epic. It was important and meant something to the larger DCU. I also think Jason's has just a big impact but on the total different side of the spectrum. A character turned into a cautionary tale instead of a heroic sacrifice, you can only do that once but DC mucked that all up by bring ing him back, same with Barry.

I disagree about Barry. Add in the fact that they comment how what he was doing would save the multiverse... and then at the end the multiverse is destroyed anyway... I was very disappointed. Using the speed to turn the weaponers on Anti Monitor was cool... but Really Flash's purpose in being there was just a sacrificial goat. Supergirl got an epic battle... Flash not so much.

Jason I Agree with you completely. The idea of him being a cautionary tale and the way his ghost Haunted Batman and Tim's whole career was epic. That trophy case just lingering in the cave as a reminder was perfect as was. Bringing him back was one of the worst mistakes they've done.

[QUOTE=byrd156;3929638]
The problem with writers now is that they think that death in and of itself makes an epic story. If a character is going to die they need pathos, some important story reason for the death/celebration of what came before, and a blaze of glory of sorts. The last isn't always needed but it really makes an impact when a character goes down swinging like Barry, Supergirl, Doc Ock, etc. I think if Bruce was to ever really 100% die, he should get shot in an alleyway or just die of old age in one. The pathos and full circle of his story works for both ways, the first representing the same way his parents died and that crime isn't something you can just stop and the second is a more hopeful spin that Bruce's mission was worth it in the end. [quote]

YES!!
I hate any story that has Bruce retiring. He's just not the sort to give up. I've long said that when he dies... it will be to a no-name thug with a gun in an alley. His reflexes will be little slow. His timing is a little off, or the punk just gets lucky. But Batman doesn't get a happy ending. He'll run that race two laps longer than he should have and push himself just a little too far.

Just punching someone's head off in the middle of a fight without buildup, dying off panel, or a sudden shift to villain that needs to be killed by a hero are lazy go to story ideas. They have been done to death, it doesn't even feel like they are trying to capture lightning in a bottle but rather manufacture bottles with a cheap lightning logo on the side. I'm tired of the same ideas being done over and over again. It's more of the same attempts but worse each time.

I'm a little torn on this. I honestly love Infinite Crisis. Granted none of MY favorite characters got slaughtered so I can understand some hatred there... but there really WAS something terrifying about a Kryptonian that wasn't holding back. Someone with Superman's ability that just RIPS through his enemies.

None of this 'well with planning... or well he has weaknesses....' None of that crap. Superboy is here, You're in his way. Your head gets knocked off and MAYBE thrown into the sun. They wanted to show this kid as a threat the likes we've never seen before... and I think it did the job. I have imagines in my mind of Batman rewatching this on his computer screens while looking at his fancy kryptonite batarangs and mech suit and getting REALLY, REALLY nervous.

[phantom1592]

No, the books were better then and the story and art much better as well. Nostalgia is not stupid. It is proof of human intelligence. Never trust someone who is younger than 40...
at least.

Cant' argue with that. I think Comic collecting is 90% nostalgia

[mrbrklyn]

That's irrelevant. I wasn't talking about the idea of killing off Barry (which I still don't agree was a good move) I was talking about the death itself was pretty lame. When I was reading back in the 90's about Wally and tried to track down what happened to Barry... and I finally got a hold of a copy of that COIE issue... MAN was I disappointed. Running in a circle till he turned to dust?? Lame. It was really one of the most passive deaths I'd ever heard of. I expected much better. There HAS to be a better way to stop a machine like that then just running around it till you die.

Also... on the idea of how important people have made that death.... It had already been retconned. For years. Barry never 'died'... he went into the speed force. That image of his flesh melting and skeleton crumbling... that was retconned a long time before they ever brought him officially back.




I think the point is that people who complain about how the silver age characters have taken over and stupidity of Nostalgia... usually ignore the fact that the 90's that spawned Kyle and Wally and Connor are ALSO 30 years ago.

If they want to be new, hip and progressive... the answer isn't shelving Hal... It's shelving Hal AND Kyle and just running with Simon or some new speedster.

People like to complain about the 90's as trash... but most of the Legacy characters came into their own during that time frame.

Oh please. Hal Jordan is the best character DC generated and these other wannabes can all die and nobody would miss them. Missing knowledge on the history of comics doesn't make someone an expert. The problem here is that when I was your age, I spent a LOT of time reading back issues. I sat in comic shops and read the bins like it was a public library. Today, you are overwhelmed with inferior product.. Literally a hundred titles on the shelf at Midtown Comics in NYC. There is no sense of the history of comics whatsoever. FWIW, nothing is more lame than the word lame. There is no craftsmanship today. Old timers got paid by the page and turned out page after page of product on the 30 day or even bi-weekely deadlines. In the generations before that, Comic artists where celebrates on the scale of Movie Stars today... like Jenifer Lawrence famous. Go and read some of the detailed interviews of the older craftsmen of this business. They're insights are quite amazing. Jack Kirby used to draw books by starting in the upper left hand corner and drawing the whole page down, straight from his brain to the paper. This was serious talent.

Dost thou not suspect my place? dost thou not
suspect my years? O that he were here to write me
down an ass! But, masters, remember that I am an
ass; though it be not written down, yet forget not
that I am an ass. No, thou villain, thou art full of
piety, as shall be proved upon thee by good witness.
I am a wise fellow, and, which is more, an officer,
and, which is more, a householder, and, which is
more, as pretty a piece of flesh as any is in
Messina, and one that knows the law, go to; and a
rich fellow enough, go to; and a fellow that hath
had losses, and one that hath two gowns and every
thing handsome about him. Bring him away. O that
I had been writ down an ass!

[Dred]

I think the point is that people who complain about how the silver age characters have taken over and stupidity of Nostalgia... usually ignore the fact that the 90's that spawned Kyle and Wally and Connor are ALSO 30 years ago.

If they want to be new, hip and progressive... the answer isn't shelving Hal... It's shelving Hal AND Kyle and just running with Simon or some new speedster.

People like to complain about the 90's as trash... but most of the Legacy characters came into their own during that time frame.

That would've been the natural progression if we didn't dial everything back to go back to the 60s. You can't naturally progress from the 60s to the 2010s. That's kind of the entire damn problem with regression.

I agree with you that we should be well into the next era of heroes. Instead of a giant log jam where no one ever moves up because 50 year old white guys have all the power and we're forever stuck with characters designed for our grandparents rather than us or our kids.

That's a good point. Metal did sell really well because it has a star team, Batman, lore fanservice, bringing back fan-favorite characters, introducing new elements to the lore, and actually permanently changing the state of the universe.

The death of Superman and Jason sells because it's Superman and Robin. Death of Lagoon Boy on his own will not sell his book but having Wally and Roy dying as well, in an event starring fan favorite Harley and Booster, Batman and Justice League will.

My only hope is the people who stop buying because of Wally and Roy outnumber people who buy because of Harley and Batman, because I personally against stories that promote death, but the latter two are DC cash cow, so I'm not expecting much.

You are demonstrably wrong. If Wally or Roy had a big enough comic buying block to effect sales they'd have their own book. That's why they're expendable and killable. I don't like it being true but Wally's fanbase has been beaten and culled for well over a decade at this point, there's not nearly enough of it left for it to bother any of DC's plans. DC lost their wallets ages ago, us lingering few don't matter.

Superman or Batman dying is the cornerstone of an event. Wally and Roy dying is just something that happened to Booster and Harley and the Trinity.

No, the books were better then and the story and art much better as well. Nostalgia is not stupid. It is proof of human intelligence. Never trust someone who is younger than 40...
at least.

Everything in the past was not better than everything that came after it. Never trust someone younger than 40? Why would anyone trust a baby boomer or generation x person these days? Not like we need advice on tanking the industry, economy, and world.

[mrbrklyn]

Cant' argue with that. I think Comic collecting is 90% nostalgia

ROFL!!! - Alright - you got me. I can't tell if you are going left or right, or just playing the role of William Kempe

For a taste:
If a hart do lack a hind,
Let him seek out Rosalinde.
If the cat will after kind,
So be sure will Rosalinde. 1215
Winter garments must be lin'd,
So must slender Rosalinde.
They that reap must sheaf and bind,
Then to cart with Rosalinde.
Sweetest nut hath sourest rind, 1220
Such a nut is Rosalinde.
He that sweetest rose will find
Must find love's prick and Rosalinde.
This is the very false gallop of verses; why do you infect
yourself with them?

[JasonTodd428]

Regarding Jason Todd's death being mucked up because they brought him back I heartily disagree. In my opinion it was already screwed up because of the gimmicky 1-900 vote that DC used to cover their a$$e$. They wanted to be rid of him so they chose the most brutal shock value way to do it and then pushed the blame onto the fans instead of giving him any kind of a honorable death such as Barry had. The cautionary tale aspect might have been fine with me had writers not elected to employ the art of character assassination in order to achieve it. To this day they've managed to so successfully label him as the "Bad Robin" that it's all fans think they remember of his time in that role.

[phantom1592]

Oh please. Hal Jordan is the best character DC generated and these other wannabes can all die and nobody would miss them. Missing knowledge on the history of comics doesn't make someone an expert. The problem here is that when I was your age, I spent a LOT of time reading back issues. I sat in comic shops and read the bins like it was a public library. Today, you are overwhelmed with inferior product.. Literally a hundred titles on the shelf at Midtown Comics in NYC. There is no sense of the history of comics whatsoever. FWIW, nothing is more lame than the word lame. There is no craftsmanship today. Old times got paid by the page and turned out page after page of product on the 30 day or even bi-weekely deadlines. In the generations before that, Comic artists where celebrates on the scale of Movie Stars today... like Jenifer Lawrence famous. Go and read some of the detailed interviews of the older craftsmen of this business. They're insights are quite amazing. Jack Kirby used to draw books by starting in the upper left hand corner and drawing the whole page down, straight from his brain to the paper. This was serious talent.

Yeah... been there and done that.

I think you've got some wires crossed somewhere. I'm 41 and been reading same as you since the 80's and spent more than my share of time amongst the backissue boxes.

I think you're missing the heavy dose of sarcasm I've been injecting here. I know it's 3am here, so maybe it isn't that clear... or maybe you've read too fast, but Just because I know where Buried Alien's and Dred's comments are coming from... does not mean that I am in any way anti-nostalgia, Anti-90's or anti-classic/icons.

Hal Jordan is and always will be my favorite Green Lantern. The books written from the 70's-90's were the true golden age of comics for me. I can barely stomach anything that's been written in the last decade.